Coronavirus is airborne - mask up

[parietal]

I recently commented on a thread about hand-washing that the coronavirus is airborne and a bunch of people jumped on to argue. Here, I want to make the case that this thing really is airborne and that is what we need to focus on

Back in Feb / March, we did not know much about the virus but now there is more and more evidence that this thing spreads through the air. Not just big droplets on surfaces, and not just someone coughing in your face. Just breathing the same air as an infected person is enough to spread the virus.

Most of these papers are from
twitter.com/AliNouriPhD/status/1305899457540771847?s=20 who is a molecular biologist. I'm just summarising them here

1. In a call centre in Korea, 1 person infected 94 out of 216 colleagues on the same floor. The people who caught covid worked in the same room but at distant desks. Others on the same floor (sharing lifts & bathrooms) did not catch it.

2. Restaurant in china with 5 big round tables. 3 tables had a re-circulating aircon system above all 3 - one covid case at the middle table spread to 9 people at the other 2 tables. But there were also 2 tables on a different aircon system and none of the people at those tables got covid.

3. In Starbucks in Korea, one lady with covid spent an hour chatting to a friend. 26 people in the same starbucks got infected BUT the 4 employees (who were wearing masks) did not
   edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-08-25-20-intl/h_d88a8d6e5ee96dd569bd1be5d494de45

4. the virus has been captured in air at least 5m from patients and can survive for 16 hours in the air

The more we understand about the virus, the better we can defend against it. And all this data suggests that the most important thing is don't breathe the same air - big open spaces with fresh air are good. And if you can't stay in an open space, wear a mask.

My take on it is that the average MP is clueless.

@SallySeven

My take on it is that the average MP is clueless.

They are.

Years ago I worked with our parliamentary candidate and they got in. We let out a big sigh of relief as it meant the incompetent idiot wasn't coming in and causing mayhem.

They lasted one term.

I read recently that wearing a mask might act as a sort of crude vaccine, by allowing infection with a vastly reduced viral load. As I recall, the term used was "variation".

I suspect that if people understood/thought that wearing a mask potentially benefited themselves (rather than others) there would be greater uptake. Such is human nature, sadly.

I would love to hear views from any scientists/virologists about this.

"variolation" not "variation" (blimmin spellcheck!)

@TheSunisStillShining, thankyou for taking the time to share those links, I will read through.

This article reporting on a Japanese study using a super computer (no idea how that works) says this about non-woven masks (the disposable blue surgical masks are non woven apparently):

“The non-woven variety blocked nearly all droplets emitted in a cough, according to experts at Riken, a government-backed research institute in the western city of Kobe.

Cotton and polyester masks were slightly less effective, but were still able to block at least 80% of droplets.

Non-woven “surgical” masks were slightly less effective at blocking smaller droplets measuring 20 micrometres or less, with more than 10% escaping through gaps between the edge of the mask and the face, according to the computer model.One micrometre is one millionth of a metre.
www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/26/non-woven-masks-better-to-stop-covid-19-says-japanese-supercomputer?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Bearing in mind I haven’t read your links yet, I know there is no firm consensus on non respirator masks, it seems they probably block a fair amount of droplets from the mouth and nose and possibly some of the smaller droplets that can become airborne. I think the studies showing where people wore masks of any type had lower transmission rates than where no masks are worn indicate masks of any type are probably better than nothing, even if there is still little consensus about the degree of how many small droplets are blocked. Of course if a blue mask is v loosely fitted with big gaps (there are ways of folding them to give a tighter fit) the degree of blocking of of small and large droplets will be even less.

@Guylan
In the twitter thread there is a laser light painted video showing how droplets can spread with the different type of masks.

Yes, even the blue thing is better than nothing, but with as big gaps as I see ppl wearing them they are very close to useless. So it's doing something for the sake of complying with a rule, not because we understand the underlying reason why that rule was.

@TheSunIsStillShining, briefly, I know there seems enough studies to show airborne transmission from smaller droplets is happening alongside larger droplets, as demonstrated by the tweets you linked me too. As said, it seems it’s possible non woven masks do block some of the smaller airborne droplets but it may only be small. I know Asian countries take airborne transmission of COVID-19 more seriously and advise on the importance of ventilation. I saw CDC after announcing on their website that airborne transmission is happening as well as larger droplets have now taken that down and say it’s still under review. There is concern this was due to influence by the Trump administration, v worrying.

Yes, even the blue thing is better than nothing, but with as big gaps as I see ppl wearing them they are very close to useless. So it's doing something for the sake of complying with a rule, not because we understand the underlying reason why that rule was.

I hear you, but the studies showing indoor places where the public wear masks of any types has reduced transmission suggests even the blue masks may be helping, even if only v small, although of course it’s possible any reduction in transmission might be mainly from blocking larger droplets and/or those wearing better fitting non respirator masks than v loosely fitted blue masks. I will read through all the twitter thread now.

@LangClegsInSpace

Just doesn’t make sense that they are seeing so many fewer cases even with tracing.

Contact tracing (combined with testing and isolation) can be incredibly effective at taking the virus out of circulation. It's hard to appreciate this if you just look at the useless shitshow we've got in this country.

I wish all the people who are so angry about others not wearing masks would get angry about this instead.

I agree the govt have so messed up in not getting a well functioning test, trace system in place. Any benefits from the blunt hammer of a lockdown are soon lost if there is no functional test trace system to take over after the lockdown gets numbers down. The numbers will just rise again fairly quickly as is happening now. And I know national lockdowns have so many downsides so if they are going to be done you definitely need a good test and trace system in place to harness the benefits and offset the collateral damage of a lockdown.

I agree. On the other hand where there is prolonged exposure (work, school) wouldn't it be safer to actually ask ppl to wear a properly fitting respirator?

*i meant to write test, trace and isolate system, not just test and trace. I know all 3 are needed to be effective.

@TheSunIsStillShining, I would say so along with better ventilation.

Ps @TheSunIsStillShining, I know at one time there was the issue that there may not be enough respirators available outside healthcare, but I would hope there has been a focus on to improve market supply of these. I don’t know whether there has been. Also of course respirators I believe are v uncomfortable when worn for longer times so would compliance be much reduced? I don’t know...

@Guylan

Ps *@TheSunIsStillShining*, I know at one time there was the issue that there may not be enough respirators available outside healthcare, but I would hope there has been a focus on to improve market supply of these. I don’t know whether there has been. Also of course respirators I believe are v uncomfortable when worn for longer times so would compliance be much reduced? I don’t know...

I was able get 3 for our family in March/April for 10£ each from just one chemist. Now they are down to 5£ and in all local chemistries. So supply seems to be much better.

I've been wearing them for hours since way back and the ones that have the filter are really not bad! They stay in place even when you are talking for extended period - with minimal adjusting. The filter makes it easier to let breath out. I've tried the blue one and the amount I had to fiddle with it to stay in place was just ridiculous. I genuinely hated it.

I also tried another version: bought double sided tape (yup, the boob tape :)) and made the mask actually stick on my face. It was great! Didn't fall off ,moved with my jaw,... The downside was when I wanted to take it down - yeah, the very sticky tape left a red mark for hours. So not a good idea. (if anyone wanted to try :))

@TheSunIsStillShining, good to hear the market supply might be better and you don’t find them uncomfortable. I bought one disposable respirator back in March and it wasn’t v comfortable but I think it could have been too small. I didn’t buy any more as one they were too expensive due to increased price and I was concerned about there being sufficient supply for healthcare workers. It’s also not so important for me as I am housebound due to chronic illness though I have daily carers come to my home.

Sorry for my ignorance but when you say the filter makes it easier to breathe are you referring to the one way valve that some of the respirators and cloth masks come with? My understanding is if you are wearing a respirator with a one way valve you will be protected but you will exhale unfiltered air so are not protecting others. I also believe the best fit is when it’s tested professionally with a spray etc but obviously not possible for general public. Although I am sure a non professionally tested respirator has much less gaps than a surgical one. I understand why you wear one.

• forgot to say smiling at the boob tape and resulting red mark!

Im on those threads. Ive never referred to masks as face nappies. I didnt start off on those threads. I joined them because of the attitudes shown towards people who cant wear masks. There is no disability discrimination on those threads. Unlike these ones. Uncomfortable for you to hear but true.

Why would that be uncomfortable for me or anyone to hear? I have been very vocal about the disgusting othering of the vulnerable and the older generations on a number of Covid threads. I am glad that you enjoy those AD threads, I had a brief look on a bad day when I needed distraction and found some of what I saw reprehensible. I guess we are two different people.

I guess we are @cbt944

Cant wait to see the mental gymnastics to excuse this................

It gets better folks

www.politicshome.com/news/article/serco-contract-tracing-concentrix

Exclusive: Serco Have Subcontracted Contact Tracing Jobs To The Company Embroiled In The Tax Credits Scandal And Debt Collection Companies

The firm behind last year’s tax credits scandal as well as companies linked to debt collection services are among those who have been handed contact tracing roles by Serco, PoliticsHome can reveal.

The outsourcing giant was handed a lucrative £108m contract earlier this year to run a major part of the government's contract tracing work, but has come under fire for subcontracting dozens of firms to conduct the bulk of the work.

In June, ministers confirmed that Serco had subcontracted approximately 9,000 staff out of the total 10,500 required to run the service to a panel of 29 subcontractors, but refused to reveal the list of firms because of commercial sensitivity.

But PoliticsHome can reveal that Concentrix, the US company behind a major tax credits debacle, are among those who have been handed contracts by Serco to provide staff to run the scheme.

Concentrix had been hired by HMRC in 2014 to tackle fraud and error in the tax credit system, but were removed just two years later following a swathe of complaints from MPs and claimants who had had their benefits reduced or halted by the firm

Ministers later admitted that 87% of the 36,000 people who lodged an appeal against the firm's rulings had their complaints upheld, while HMRC revealed that the cost of conducting mandatory reviews and closing the 181,000 cases left open by Concentrix had cost a further £30m in staff time.

Last year, the firm faced further criticism over their handling of the UK's Action Fraud call center after an investigation by The Times revealed staff handling calls had described fraud victims as "morons", "psychos" and "screwballs".

Speaking to MPs after the reports, then-civil service chief executive John Manzoni said officials would "make sure" the firm were not awarded further government work "unless they could persuade us that they had got better".

But despite the scandals, the company appears to have been contracted by Serco to run Tier 3 contact tracing services, which involves calling people who have come into close contact with an infected person and telling them to self-isolate.

Meanwhile, Serco have also handed contracts to two companies whose work is connected to debt collection services.

NCO Europe is a debt collection company that bills itself as “the UK's leading customer service provider, from Contact Solutions to creating Payment Plans”, while Arvato CRM UK says it delivers “award-winning customer service and back-office processing services for some of the world’s most respected brands”. It is part of the global network of Arvato, owned by Bertelsman. Its sister company, Arvato Financial Solutions, offers debt collection services.

Ministers have already faced criticism over the use of private firms to conduct contact tracing after it was revealed in August that the system had reached just 54% of people who had been in close contact with an infected person in the 20 worst-hit parts of the UK.

A spokesperson for Arvato declined to comment. A spokesperson for the Department for Health directed PoliticsHome to Serco. A spokesperson for the outsourcing firm said: “We went through a due diligence process for all our subcontractors that looked at their contact centre and customer service experience.

“Some of the subcontractors were already also on the Cabinet Office’s Crown Commercial Framework for Contact Centres.”

NCO Europe and Concentrix did not respond to requests for comment.

Responding to the story, shadow cabinet minister Rachel Reeves said: "As if continuing outsourcing to a company with such a bad track record wasn't enough, this government didn't even ensure that those it was subcontracting were up to the job.

"Instead of outsourcing to tier upon tier of private companies, this Tory government should have put money into our public services which know local communities better, and are far more efficient.

"With the testing system on the brink of collapse when we need it most, the government has serious questions to answer on why this subcontractor - embroiled in scandal and with a track record of failing government services - was given responsibility for part of one of the most systems in our country."

@LangClegsInSpace

These cities have had pandemics in the last few years which did not really reach us and so may have already built up an immunity to Covid 19.

South Korea have never had a pandemic unlike its neighbours FYI. I believe mask wearing has played a huge part there, together with an effective track and tracing.

I guess we are @cbt944**

Oh, thank you for your apology.

Nice try but im not going to bite. Better luck next time @cbt944

What are you talking about, Helena? You seem to have me thoroughly confused with somebody else - simply because I mentioned your beloved threads were being disparaging about the wearing of masks. It is ironic since those very threads were begun from memory months ago to disparage those who took this pandemic seriously.

I'm not sure why you took my comment so very personally. The virus is airborne. I have believed so from the very start. This has now been established (not enough for some). That would be my point on this thread.

I am glad you don't refer to masks as face nappies, thank you for establishing that. I still find it bizarre you took a comment about a long-running thread so very personally.

I got banned from here for a week for calling an ableist a disgusting individual. Yet much worse comments were left to stand. The Equality Act has not been rescinded no matter how many on here would like it to be. Its because of the discrimination i saw on this board that i ended up posting on the other threads. I wear a mask myself But people cant seem to understand why IMO people who are exempt should be left alone. If i hadnt felt so alienated on here i wouldnt have posted on the other threads in the first place. I didnt really notice them at first. I wasnt on them from the beginning and i havent read them from the beginning. Maybe some on here shouldnt have been so prejudiced.
Its not just disability discrimination. Ive also seen plenty of class prejudice on here from people saying that mask compliance is lower in poorer areas. And the other threads are reprehensible???!!!

I was disgusted. So i started posting there. And more people are delurking and posting there too. Its almost as if actions have consequences.

oh and the latest one on here was the comment about how supermarket work is not manual labour. The milk of human kindness again.
Meanwhile on the other threads we are having an absolutely reprehensible discussion about how poorly supermarket workers are treated. So nasty of us!!