Coronavirus is airborne - mask up

[parietal]

I recently commented on a thread about hand-washing that the coronavirus is airborne and a bunch of people jumped on to argue. Here, I want to make the case that this thing really is airborne and that is what we need to focus on

Back in Feb / March, we did not know much about the virus but now there is more and more evidence that this thing spreads through the air. Not just big droplets on surfaces, and not just someone coughing in your face. Just breathing the same air as an infected person is enough to spread the virus.

Most of these papers are from
twitter.com/AliNouriPhD/status/1305899457540771847?s=20 who is a molecular biologist. I'm just summarising them here

1. In a call centre in Korea, 1 person infected 94 out of 216 colleagues on the same floor. The people who caught covid worked in the same room but at distant desks. Others on the same floor (sharing lifts & bathrooms) did not catch it.

2. Restaurant in china with 5 big round tables. 3 tables had a re-circulating aircon system above all 3 - one covid case at the middle table spread to 9 people at the other 2 tables. But there were also 2 tables on a different aircon system and none of the people at those tables got covid.

3. In Starbucks in Korea, one lady with covid spent an hour chatting to a friend. 26 people in the same starbucks got infected BUT the 4 employees (who were wearing masks) did not
   edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-08-25-20-intl/h_d88a8d6e5ee96dd569bd1be5d494de45

4. the virus has been captured in air at least 5m from patients and can survive for 16 hours in the air

The more we understand about the virus, the better we can defend against it. And all this data suggests that the most important thing is don't breathe the same air - big open spaces with fresh air are good. And if you can't stay in an open space, wear a mask.

I don’t think this is news? Everyone knows it is. Surely.

@LilyPond2

I have sometimes wondered what would happen if all the people who claim they can't wear masks were offered £1000 provided they wore masks in all relevant settings for a month. I think the number of people "unable" to wear a mask would fall dramatically.

I wouldn't be wearing one. You could offer me a million quid and it would still be a no.

the most important thing is don't breathe the same air - big open spaces with fresh air are good. And if you can't stay in an open space, wear a mask.

schools?

I'm with you, school kids should wear masks, they do from age 5 no problem elsewhere.

Some reasons for exemption aren't medical. People with trauma from undisclosed DV/rape, for example

Surely that is a medical reason?

@PennyDreadfuI

But mysteriously all those exempt people seem to attend the local secondary school, or are under 30! My gp friend says less than 1% of his patients genuinely are exempt, around 25% are making excuses

Completely agree with you that people should be required to show medical evidence if they are not wearing a mask in a place where mask wearingi s mandated.

Maybe a card showing they are exempt, but that’s all it needs to say, no reasons. The problem with that is that every nosy twat will think they’re entitled to see it whereas it should be for police, officials etc only.

[quote movingonup20]@PennyDreadfuI

But mysteriously all those exempt people seem to attend the local secondary school, or are under 30! My gp friend says less than 1% of his patients genuinely are exempt, around 25% are making excuses[/quote]
Family member is a GP and says the same, there are very very few legitimate medical reasons someone can’t wear a mask.

What’s so silly is people saying they would rather stay home than wear a mask, surely they’re the ones refusing to “live with it” compared to the rest who are wearing a mask and getting on with life.

Don't want to stay home - 'let it rip' and you vulnerable/disposable ones can stay home, they say - but then they don't want to wear a mask either!

I think it's some sort of brain malfunction caused by too much unusual reality and/or an inability to deal in an adult way with difficult realities.

I don’t think there’s any doubt that it is airborne.

I completely understand that some people are exempt, for any number of reasons. I am shocked by the number of people I have seen not wearing them recently though, and I am uncomfortable being in an enclosed space with someone not wearing a mask, even with distancing in place. I would never say or do anything, I understand that some are exempt, but I do not like it as I feel it puts me (and them) at higher risk of infection. I try to leave spaces like that quickly.

I don’t think my feelings are wrong, as long as I don’t make it my business to ‘police’ the choices of others. There will undoubtedly be people who don’t have a genuine reason though, and that is hard to stomach at the moment.

[quote movingonup20]@PennyDreadfuI

But mysteriously all those exempt people seem to attend the local secondary school, or are under 30! My gp friend says less than 1% of his patients genuinely are exempt, around 25% are making excuses[/quote]
Your 'GP friend' is not counting the people who are not medically exempt or live with undisclosed DV/rape trauma, for example. And even if 'less than 1%' of his patients at exempt, it doesn't mean that 1% of all GPs' patients are.

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

Completely agree with you that people should be required to show medical evidence if they are not wearing a mask in a place where mask wearingi s mandated.

Maybe a card showing they are exempt, but that’s all it needs to say, no reasons. The problem with that is that every nosy twat will think they’re entitled to see it whereas it should be for police, officials etc only.

Also that some people are exempt due to undisclosed trauma from DV/rape, or are living in a DV situation still and have told nobody. Not all exemptions are medical.

@Pobblebonk

Some reasons for exemption aren't medical. People with trauma from undisclosed DV/rape, for example

Surely that is a medical reason?

Not if it's undisclosed.

Someone may not want to talk about their rape, much less tell a stranger in order to get an exemption card. Some people are still living in a violent situation and are scared to talk about it.

@LilyPond2

I have sometimes wondered what would happen if all the people who claim they can't wear masks were offered £1000 provided they wore masks in all relevant settings for a month. I think the number of people "unable" to wear a mask would fall dramatically.

I'd still be maskless, as would the hundreds of thousands who have the same condition as me.

It says in one of the quoted pieces

'Conclusions
We investigated a COVID-19 outbreak in Zhejiang province and found that airborne transmission likely contributed to the high attack rate seen. The investigations suggest that, in closed environments with air recirculation, SARS-CoV-2 is a highly transmissible pathogen.' These people were sat on a bus then worshipped together later for hours. Plenty of time to cough and breathe all over each other hence the aerosol transmission.... it doesn't prove it is airborne at all... it may be or may not be

@MushMonster - WHO did publish that it was not airborne just at the time UK went into lockdown

No they didn't. At the end of March WHO said that according to current evidence the virus is primarily transmitted by droplets and contact. They said there had been no reported cases of airborne transmission from China but that it may be possible, especially in the context of aerosol generating procedures. They discussed some initial findings from a lab experiment and some observational studies that suggested the virus could become airborne in other contexts. They said these results should be interpreted carefully, further studies were needed and that they were carefully monitoring emerging evidence and would update their guidance as more information became available.

www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/modes-of-transmission-of-virus-causing-covid-19-implications-for-ipc-precaution-recommendations

They updated the scientific brief at the beginning of July, taking into account many of the findings discussed on this thread. Their conclusions were pretty much unchanged - while the virus can become airborne, the primary modes of transmission are droplets and contact. They continue to carefully monitor all emerging evidence and make an urgent call for high quality research in this area.

www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/transmission-of-sars-cov-2-implications-for-infection-prevention-precautions

This is WHY face coverings are useful in situations where you can't socially distance - because they can catch droplets.

They provide no protection in situations where the virus has become airborne.

@PennyDreadfuI I feel for those people but if there are as many of them as you claim why do they only live in Britain? No DV survivors in Korea or Canada or Japan?

Why has this turned into yet another exemption bashing thread?

If you are telling people to wear a mask 'because it's airborne' you really can't accuse others of being 'hard of thinking'

Wear a mask if you can, leave other people alone.

[quote turnitonagain]@PennyDreadfuI I feel for those people but if there are as many of them as you claim why do they only live in Britain? No DV survivors in Korea or Canada or Japan?[/quote]
Yes. That's why they have exemptions in most of those places, too. The ones which don't have exemptions are not to be held up as a shining beacon of anything, given they have no laws to protect the disabled/those with health conditions.

Every country has medical exemptions.

My issue is your claim with no evidence that “hundreds of thousands” of people cannot wear masks due to psychological trauma, but that they can’t even go to a GP to say so which is why GPs think few people need exemptions. It’s a tautology, I’m sorry.

If you can’t wear one then don’t wear one, but the minority in this situation cannot dictate national public health policy.

Why has this turned into yet another exemption bashing thread?

Because they always, always do.

So far we've had:

Not trying hard enough ✔️
'My GP friend says' ✔️
What about China, that beacon of human rights? They all wear them there ✔️
There's only a tiny handful of people can't wear them ✔️
My DH/son/dog has asthma so if he can, everyone can ✔️
DV isn't that common ✔️

All we need now is for someone to suggest visors and I think we'll have a full house!

the minority in this situation cannot dictate national public health policy

Neither can random posters on MN.

There is an exemption policy - if you see someone without a mask, assume they're exempt and move on.

The fact that it’s airborne means space is so much more important than masks. The hands, face, space message is completely the wrong way round in terms of order of priority (I appreciate space, face, hands doesn’t sound nearly as snappy).

Valance and Whitty mentioned aerosol transmission in their talk yesterday. The WHO has confirmed that aerosol transmission happens. I can’t believe that people are still denying it?

@PennyDreadfuI

the minority in this situation cannot dictate national public health policy

Neither can random posters on MN.

There is an exemption policy - if you see someone without a mask, assume they're exempt and move on.

Did I say I wouldn’t?

Why do you come and derail every discussion on masks with this same argument that not everyone can wear one? OK we know! But we also know that our uncle who won’t wear one isn’t a DV survivor he’s just a dickhead.

@turnitonagain how is talking about mask wearing on a mask thread derailing?

When posters are banging on about 'I saw X number of people without masks today, they can't all be exempt', you bet I'm going to say something. If you'd been hissed at, sworn at, called vile names, tutted at and glared at, you might, too.

And it seems like everyone does not know that exemptions exist, and why. Even now.