“Covid marshals to be introduced”

[Funkypolar]

To enforce social distancing.

No doubt they will find many volunteers on Mumsnet!

@DianasLasso

But here, in the UK, they will fuck it up.

The contract will be given to Serco. Those they recruit, sadly, will include people on petty power trips, those who couldn't become traffic wardens or -what were those pseudo-police called? PSOCs or something? That isn't 'bashing people on minimum wage', incidentally.

Anyway, it will all end up being a monumental, expensive fuck up. Of that we can be sure.

A completely accurate prediction!

And I say that as someone following the rules.

It will attract the worst sort of curtain twitcher and low-level bully, while simultaneously being completely ineffective in terms of disease control.

But it's an easy and low cost piece of political showmanship. As opposed to doing something genuinely useful. Like a decent testing regime. Or decent track and trace measures. Or identifying ways in which a return to school could be managed without cramming 30 kids into one classroom.

Yep. Except they’ll only bully clearly visibly disabled people, mums and kids, and old people. Healthy looking men, especially hard looking ones in big groups, will be left alone.

@TheClaws

* Have you seen some of the ridiculous posts over the last months? People being told they shouldn't be buying milk as it's not essential, I was told I shouldn't leave the house as I cough, posters complaining about neighbours leaving the house for too long or too often. Oh and the classic the other day where a poster wanted to know what they should do about their neighbours as they hear them coughing!

None of this is anything to do with keeping anyone safer, it's ridiculous overreaction and, yes, it is hyseterical.*

I haven't seen any posts saying milk isn't essential. As for the your other examples - you're cherry-picking. The poster who wanted advice about a neighbour coughing constantly - and then was piled on - was just that. She just wanted advice and she was pilloried.

The only hysterical posters I see on here regarding COVID are the deniers - eg. you and your ilk. You constantly shout down anyone reasonable. The COVID board is difficult to read due to the lack of useful information now.

There definitely was a post where someone was told milk wasn’t essential and the suggestion was she could use cheese instead.

The coughing post was ridiculous. What kind of advice can anyone possibly legitimacy require on any level about a neighbour coughing?

*legitimately

I don't go as far in strength of feeling as minishmi and i dont agree with all their points but i also think its hard to ignore the cognitive dissonance we are supposed to have with the way the government are selling this to us.

I think its also perfectly possible to think we should be following precautions where possible for health reasons whilst being concerned about the use of authoritarianism to enforce them rather than adherence being driven by people seeing the need for their freely given participation in social duty to others.

Part of the problem is precisely because uk culture - perhaps more than other western societies - is very much more based on ideas of self and individualism rather than social participation and responsibility. Its why we had 'yuppie culture' start under Thatcher and why we have higher levels of inequality now. Its a consequence of neoliberalism.

By the same token there is a growing desire in the public for authoritarianism and 'strong leadership' which is why marshal seem a popular idea.

Its all about this country falling out of favour with a more liberalist approach (which would be guidelines than had a high complaince rate without the need for legal enforcement because politicians had been able to convey the complexity of the argument well).

As it stands some of the apparent nonsense of the guidelines does make more sense than it initially appears on the surface, if you think of things in terms of priorities for the running of the country for health, educational and financial reason ahead of personal enjoyment. Plus in a formal setting its much easier for rules to be maintained because theres always someone who has a duty to remind everyone. Meeting outside this can quickly descend into old habits.

But in order for this to be taken seriously we have to be honest about risks involved and be upfront about why these risks are worth taking whilst others need to be put on ice for the time being.

We also know from experience in the UK when authoritarian laws are introduced they rarely completely disappear or are used entirely for the purposes they were designed. Its the rule of unintended consequences that covid-19 laws will probably be misused, misinterpreted or persist in some way after the crisis has passed. We need to be conscious of this and keep our eyes open for abuse and manipulation to further unrelated ideologies.

So i do very much get the fear and worry about creeping authoritarianism. The problem is that in the absence of many feeling they have a stake in society and therefore a responsibility to society, then you are going to get low levels of adherence as people say fuck it.

Thats generally a wider more general sign of the state falling the interests of everyone its supposed to be serving. And its been pretty obvious over at least the last 5 years this had very much been the case. And you cant just undo these wider issues when a pandemic hits.

I can't shift a sense of dread and disbelief that the women in Libya must have felt as they watched their freedoms being taken away.

At least we don’t have cameras and listening devices in our homes...oh, wait.

I haven't seen any posts saying milk isn't essential

I certainly have. But my personal favourite was the poster who said that bread wasn't essential and nobody needed to buy it - just buy Ryvita instead, then you wouldn't need to go to the shop so often.

I was pilloried because I had to go to the supermarket three times a week - I don't drive, I have mobility issues so can't carry a lot of shopping on each outing, and I couldn't get a supermarket delivery slot. I was told I was selfish and putting others at risk. And let's not forget the people who thought chucking hairdye or Easter eggs in you're trolley was akin to murder.

I'm not a Covid denier but neither am I the Covid police. Most people fall into a middle ground where we've adhered to the rules, but by the same token we don't make them up or interpret them as we fancy.

fosler please get some help. It is not normal to have such a reaction to what is ultimately very reasonable given what we are facing. Speak to the GP about anxiety.

Friendsoftheearth, lots of interesting points, I wish I did have the answers. I don't have much understanding of jurisprudence and I don't know if the government (in general) or even its individual representatives could be legally held to account. Someone else here might know.

I have some thoughts about why I think doing nothing to protect human health would be immoral, but proving whether that constitutes a legal dereliction of duties I have no idea.

I think its interesting to reflect on the fact that the sovereign state has a legal and moral duty to protect human life. It has both the right to, and means to extend protection of human life but also the rights to and means to extinguish life.

I wonder whether its possible for anyone to take the government to court over manslaughter? it was on the advice of government ministers that elderly people 'bed blockers' (nice term) were discharged to nursing homes without a test for covid, or without a negative test result. Their actions led to thousands of deaths. They have both the legal right to make those decisions and the means here to extinguish life. But did they extinguish life or simply fail to extend their duty to protect life?

What would I do? I don't know. I probably would have brought about lockdown sooner, and probably stricter with even more restrictions. I would do everything within my power to protect people.

However I think this government has lost all credibility in the eyes of its electorate. So I guess the ballot box is the place they will be held to account. This they fear because they are collectively and individually driven by self interest.

And I think it is their one fear. This is why announcements are made at 10.30pm, why decisions are made on the hoof, why they dither, try to read public opinion, whilst also trying to single out specific groups for blame for rising transmission rates. They have othered the old and vulnerable so that angry young people curtailed in pursuing their goals shout "go isolate so I can go out" and others point to their neighbours as proof that ordinary people pursuing their happiness are selfish grave diggers. We do not, I do not have the power to make one iota of difference. Those that do, continue to roll out illogical guidance, and point to us and exclame indignation that we are irrational children that need control and protection because like children we don't serve our own interests in rational ways.

I would just like guidance that is rational, can at least be philosophically tested if not yet empirically, and a government that puts our (all of us) welfare before saving a failing economic system.

Even my son had something useful to say on the crisis and mitigation of risk. If we forced the banks to cancel all debt we could afford to protect human life. I think he might be right.

@Friendsoftheearth

fosler please get some help. It is not normal to have such a reaction to what is ultimately very reasonable given what we are facing. Speak to the GP about anxiety.

If you think marshals are a reasonable response then I think it's you who needs to get help for your anxiety.

As it stands some of the apparent nonsense of the guidelines does make more sense than it initially appears on the surface, if you think of things in terms of priorities for the running of the country for health, educational and financial reason ahead of personal enjoyment. Plus in a formal setting its much easier for rules to be maintained because theres always someone who has a duty to remind everyone. Meeting outside this can quickly descend into old habits.

But in order for this to be taken seriously we have to be honest about risks involved and be upfront about why these risks are worth taking whilst others need to be put on ice for the time being.

Yup, @RedToothBrush.

That's pretty much what I said to DS this morning when he said "why is it okay to have 100 kids in my year group at school but not more than 6 people meeting outside."

It's a calculated risk. Allowing no large gatherings tanks education and the economy. Allowing some (schools) will lead to an increase in cases which hopefully can be managed. Adding big sporting events, nightclubs, festivals into the mix will cause such a huge increase in risk that we can't manage it.

No decision is risk free. It's all about balancing the highest benefit against the (relatively) lowest risk (or weighing competing risks - best prevention of covid versus care for cancer sufferers for eg).

They’ve absolutely played a huge part in creating the need for Marshalls because of their attitude

Have "they"? Where is your evidence for this? We have been told that the vast vast majority of people adhered to the rules.

Covid marshals will be 'reminding' people to wear masks. Let's hope they are better informed of the rules around exemption than a lot of the people on here, and out and about generally.

@Funkypolar

At least we don’t have cameras and listening devices in our homes...oh, wait.

Hahaha yes Alexa - the modern day Telescreen. Wonder how long it will be before we all have to do our Boris mandated physical jerks?

I just posted about the seeming illogically of the rules on another thread.

What it comes down to is how ineffective track and trace is proving and which settings they are most struggling to get high levels of successful tracing.

Formal settings have record keeping of everyone in attendance. Informal private settings dont.

Its really about the weaknesses of the track and trace system which has been far too heavily centralised and reliant on call centres rather than boots on the ground, hence why some heavily hit councils have had to set up their own local track and trace system to knock on doors. The success of controlling the virus elsewhere around the world had been based on how good track and trace is. Those who have on the ground tracing are far superior in rapid success rates.

But the government are instead taking the line x and y is safe (when its really a trade off in risk v priority making) and not admitting that track and trace which they set up saying its 'worldbeating' is quite frankly, not fit for purpose.

I'm not a Covid denier but neither am I the Covid police. Most people fall into a middle ground where we've adhered to the rules, but by the same token we don't make them up or interpret them as we fancy.

Agreed

11:04 RedToothBrush

yes, yes, yes. I feel too that adherence to guidelines is difficult precisely because of the vast inequalities in our society. I suspect that those who are least willing to follow guidance are those who are least equal. It reminds me of a study into why working class children play up at school. Years ago. The hypothesis is that those children understood on some deeply fundamental level that education was functional in that its purpose was to make them docile hard workers. This was in direct opposition to their own interests.

This is where neoliberalism has landed us. Whilst we have no class consciousness that can be politically collectively articulate, it opens up a space where individuated persons of poor economic means, of poor aspiration, and even poorer education, and moral reasoning can articulate the selfish needs of its own hedonism. It combines itself with Marc Jacobs handbags and a sense of entitlement to entertainment, hanging out, street drinking, spending on consuming names to shore up its fragile ego. Sometimes I applaud the non compliance and lack of social responsibility as a protest, at other times I want to hand them a book and say ffs read it, then can we get something done. The working class is dead in more ways than one. And Covid......poor health status and economic inequality are bedfellows.

It is very interesting that having suggested there was too much state intervention that you would actually opt for a stricter lockdown, with more onerous terms to secure human life mini and I do understand the dilemma as someone that champions human rights over all else (with perhaps the exception of loss of life) but I was quite surprised to read that.

Without the enforcement element, I am minded to believe we will be precisely in that situation, a very, very strict lockdown again with the implications bearing down on the economy, children's education, mental health, all elective surgery and appointments cancelled again, the whole works.

The damage another strict lockdown would do to our country is actually terrifying when it is considered not only financially, but the actual impact on every single person grappling with it in the middle of the winter. We do not have the resources to furlough countrywide again. The measures now are being taken to stop a strict lockdown.

I agree not every part of the government's approach seems coordinated or easy to understand, and at times seems almost contradictory. I think that is probably because so many agencies are involved - there isn't just one person deciding things from above, but multiple layers of committees, scientists and decision makers. It can't be perfect, because there is no real precedent - nothing to light the way with previous experiences of such a deadly virus in the past that is relevant to how we live today.

The backlash has been somewhat moderate if we consider the alternative, and it is fine balance between the needs of the young that are not at risk, with the substantial protection that is needed for the elderly and vulnerable. It is a tightrope of competing needs in a backdrop of growing impatience, exhaustion and fatigue in the general population.

As you rightly summarise there is no clear answer. No one can say with any real authority what the next three months will bring. One could argue it might be better not to know, and to take every day as it comes.

I am afraid the banks can not cancel debt, they would no longer be viable, but it is nice idea! The collapse of the financial markets would do nothing to help us, and would only serve to add to the chaos and uncertainty. The banks can offer holidays and reprieve, and I hope we will see some goodwill and understanding - backed by the government guarantees to ensure that happens again if the need arises. Lets hope it doesn't.

I haven't seen any posts saying milk isn't essential. As for the your other examples - you're cherry-picking. The poster who wanted advice about a neighbour coughing constantly - and then was piled on - was just that. She just wanted advice and she was pilloried.

Sorry if you think I'm cherry picking, I didn't realise you wanted a list of every batshit comment. There were plenty of posts about milk not being essential. I was told I was thick and DH was a bit of a dick for buying chocolate when we went shopping. Regarding the poster asking for 'advice' about the neighbour coughing, what sort of person thinks to themselves 'my neighbour has a cough, what should I do?' Most people just mind their own business! (Thankfully my neighbours can't be on MN otherwise I'm sure they would have reported me for coughing for the last 6 months!)

The only hysterical posters I see on here regarding COVID are the deniers - eg. you and your ilk. You constantly shout down anyone reasonable. The COVID board is difficult to read due to the lack of useful information now.

No, me and my 'ilk' as you so charmingly put it haven't shouted anyone down. I'm more than happy to listen to anyone reasonable, but they are often in short supply.

The milk mafia posts existed.

People went quite mad with fear.

Now the fear has subsided and people realise that life is take the kids to school, go to work, pick up the kids go to bed rinse and repeat with nothing else allowed indefinitely, the 'fuck it, i want to make the most of whatever shitty life i have' mentality will rise. Its not surprising. Nor is it entirely unreasonable in some bleaker cases.

redtooth I agree, the rise of f* it is coming soon, which is why the marshals are probably needed after all, and a stronger police presence. Because even if we can throw our hands in the air and say 'fuck this I can not do this anymore' and throw all caution to the wind, we are probably not going to pay the price for that outburst with our life at least, but someone else may have to. And to add that those that are responsible for the country can not do give up, or say it is too hard, they have to keep going - trying to keep us all healthy and well.

Any quite frankly with much that is joyful becoming extinguished once again - it is no wonder that we are reluctant, annoyed and downright militant about our rights. No one wants to do this all again, especially now we know it is unlikely to seriously harm us directly.
The return of the 6pm G&T may be in order as the next wave rolls in.

@RedToothBrush there doesn't seem to be a happy medium, it's going from one extreme to the other. I did get sucked in at first and told DH he couldn't clear out our garage as it's in the service road behind the house and not on our garden! Thankfully I pulled myself together and followed the rules rather than the made up ones!

Having read the winter reports and covid modelling I felt quite unable to sleep absorbing the dread I felt afterwards. Marshals are the very least of our worries really, but I can't people for expressing their despair with it all.

*blame

No, me and my 'ilk' as you so charmingly put it haven't shouted anyone down. I'm more than happy to listen to anyone reasonable, but they are often in short supply.

Really? Almost every thread is packed with them. They're coordinated attacks sometimes from the ongoing AD thread in Chat. Even your "reasonable people are in short supply" backs up my thoughts that the threads are full of - well, just you types bullying others.