Think the focus should shift to university

[CKBJ]

I am still concerned for my children to return to school, not because I think they will become unwell but the risk of Covid entering our house where vulnerable grandparents live with us and for the teaching staff who seem to have little protection. However, not much is being said about universities opening in a few weeks and the new focus should be this.

Many, many students will be moving into halls of residence and student houses bringing together students from all over the country. Independent sage has been arguing for all courses unless they require lab/practical elements to be offered online and remotely. This won’t suit all students but does give them an option and possibly reduce the amount of students moving around the country. Fees should be reduced accordingly. As the majority of students use a student loan to pay fees, they should only be responsible for paying for say 3/4s back and the 1/4 is covered by the government therefore meaning the university doesn’t lose any funding. The government seems to find money for many other things.

I was just considering the education side but obviously there is the whole social side as well. Many cities will have an influx of students into their pubs and bars. This could put a lot of pressure on the local areas increasing the possibility of transmission.

It seems nearly every year there are outbreaks of Meningitis and other illnesses that seem to occur when students all gather together. These aren’t going away, they will still be a risk and the added risk will be Covid.

I’m grateful I my children are not heading off to university this year but do feel for those who are and their families. Anyone else have any thoughts?

Just as one example, universities now routinely reject UK students in favour of higher paying overseas students.

Hilarious!

Actually research doesn't really earn universities much in financial terms (full economic costing is limited), although does in terms of reputation.

@GCAcademic

A lot of these back office roles also exist to service a very bureaucratically-onerous audit culture that has its tentacles in virtually every aspect of university activity. Successive governments have heaped audits and assessments onto the sector, and the manpower required to service this is significant. It's getting to the point where the REF is in danger of costing some universities more than it will bring in.

So true.... REF, TEF, KEF, and the increasing bureaucracy that is the Office for Students.

Sigh. I really must stop posting on these threads, no good for my blood pressure. Ironically I only clicked because my dcs are at uni themselves...

I guess the point is that nothing really earns universities all that much once the outgoings are covered. Some do make a profit, many do not. Most plough profits back into their estate.

Genuine question- should universities make a profit?

No, I don’t believe they should. But I think most people think that they do.

Well, apart from surplus to maintain and improve the facilities, perhaps. But the kind of profit you might be talking about, with shareholders etc. No, I don’t think so

@avenueq

Genuine question- should universities make a profit?

As sort of public sector, no they shouldn't. There is a small private HE sector though which can, and sometimes does, make a profit. I'm it entirely comfortable with the concept of private universities though tbh. Although that's possibly just my left wing politics

Most people think universities are rolling in it. They really aren't..... lots are in real financial dire straits.

It's not about making profit in the traditional sense but having some surplus money to invest back into the university - estate, facilities, staff etc.

*NOT entirely

I'm an academic.

Most Universities are charities and so can't make a profit overall. You can get public figures for where the money is spent. e.g. in Manchester ~30% goes on academic salaries and ~18% on professional services staff. (There's another 6% on technicians and 'other staff'.)
www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/governance/corporate-documents/university-finances-at-a-glance/

There's no doubt that the big change over the last few decades within Universities has been the substantial increase in professional services staff. We have a huge number compared to previously. These carry out very important and essential roles, and there are lots of very hard working people. Many of these new roles are driven by external factors (such as government demands for REF, TEF, KEF, funding audits, export control compliance, disability legislation compliance, etc.) and student expectations (careers services, wellbeing support, etc.).

At the same time, in my (and I think many others) opinion our professional services are bloated and slow. It takes an age to get anything done. 3 months to buy a computer, 3 months to advertise a position is very much the norm. It is very frustrating. Most of the roles are not 'Professional' in terms of being a chartered accountant, or lawyer, or engineer (we have all of those); but are admin roles that require specialist knowledge. I'm unaware of any general 'Professional Services' professional qualification that is available.

As a sector we have a lot of issues, and this is by no means the only one! I certainly agree there's a big gap between what we do, and what people think we do. I think that getting through to January is going to be tough for everyone...

Most of the roles are not 'Professional' in terms of being a chartered accountant, or lawyer, or engineer (we have all of those); but are admin roles that require specialist knowledge. I'm unaware of any general 'Professional Services' professional qualification that is available.

There are lots of professional roles within professional services so of course a generic 'professional services' qualification wouldn't be suitable. They aren't all 'admin' roles though either. A careers adviser for example is a profession and requires a specific professional qualification. So is a counsellor, a librarian etc.

Just to be clear, when I criticise the sclerotic and bloated structure of universities, this is not meant as a criticism of the individuals who are doing the best job they can.

I'm not sure why they are suddenly focusing on universities. The risk is nowhere near as high as it will be when schools go back next week. Lectures will be online, there will be only small group teaching or labs and far more social distancing than at schools. Even if the students get it they will have mild illness and mostly won't be taking it home to their parents, unlike school children. I think many students who are in private accommodation are back now anyway and have been for many weeks. This hasn't caused a sudden surge in infections.

The counsellors they hired in the last year are not professionally qualified. Are careers advisors?

@GCAcademic

And I’m pretty confident that many students, given the choice of a seminar or tutorial in a mask, sitting at a 2metre distance from each other with the windows open, or a well-conducted small group live on Zoom, will opt for the latter.

I agree. My teaching is all small-group discussion based seminars. I just can't see how having the group spread out across and large room and all wearing masks is going to work. We simply won't be able to hear each other. But then I don't think the learning experience is the priority for either party. Universities want students back on campus paying accommodation fees, and students want to be back for the social experience. The students that aren't so motivated by the social experience are staying at home and availing themselves of
the offer of online teaching, which imo will work better than the masked, socially-distanced seminar.

I disagree. Many students will prefer some face-to-face teaching/tutorials.

@notevenat20 actually that ratio is poor in the independent sector. The average would be between 70% and 75% teacher salaries. I work in the sector in financial management .

Anyway the two sectors are not comparable , a prep schools only real income is from fees and maybe a few weddings . A university has a more diverse income stream As previous posters have indicated

I'm not sure why they are suddenly focusing on universities

To divert attention from schools? Nothing to see here, let’s move on...

@notevenat20

The counsellors they hired in the last year are not professionally qualified. Are careers advisors?

Most careers adviser working in HE hold a professional postgraduate qualification or commit to obtaining that qualification while in post. Most decent heads/directors of careers will insist on that qualification. There are a few that don't but there is a push from the professional body to ensure staff are appropriately qualified.

@HipTightOnions

I'm not sure why they are suddenly focusing on universities

To divert attention from schools? Nothing to see here, let’s move on...

Yes, it might be that. The risk is actually far lower than it will be in schools go back. Many of the students have been back since July anyway.

My list "chartered accountant, or lawyer, or engineer" wasn't intended to be exhaustive. Most of the positions given by subsequent posters (library, counsellors, careers advisors, etc.) aren't the general 'back office' referred to earlier in the thread and which I was focusing on. These are directly student facing.

As an earlier poster said, many existing students have gone back, as house rentals (agreed to last autumn/winter) have started already. That means it's a more phased move of about 2/3 of the student population than if they were all going to be moving within the space of a week. Although obviously the 500,000 or so new 1st years will tend to arrive at the university in the space of 1-2 days.

I find it interesting to hear from the academics here, views of the UCU, plans for teaching etc, so please stay!

@FVFrog

My DS is moving into halls in just over 2 weeks...they are forming household ‘bubbles’ with their flat mates but some are arriving from abroad and will have to self isolate, they have a mix of online and in person teaching (his course is heavily lab based). My honest opinion? They are young adults who are away from home for the first time, they have had the last year of school and exams pulled out from under them. I think there will be pretty much be zero social distancing. Put it this way I am still including condoms in my sons gift bag I will leave for him when I say goodbye the same as I have done for my other two when they started (along with an emergency clean pair of underwear, a bar of chocolate, and an emergency £20!)

Emergency condoms in a gift bag?! My DC would be extremely unimpressed if I did that. Why do they need an "emergency clean pair of underwear"? Won't they have packed underwear to take anyway?

Hi - I am an academic (and member of UCU) and agree with a lot of what has been said by others in the sector. We can't police students, so if they mix/party/and then take back into halls of residence, there are likely to be outbreaks. This was the case pre-lockdown. This is also the case in US colleges. In this sense, campus teaching will be affected by all those others factors, however safe the campus is: so there is a chance of switching from F2F to online at any moment. Everyone is planning for this.

I think students do need to know that F2F teaching will be different. Due to the estate and HSE advice, group work will be tricky if not impossible. For my subject, F2F seminar teaching will not be business as usual: rows of desk, masks, etc. prohibts usual group work discussions and tasks. I can do this online, but not F2F in the way that we usually do. We are being as creative as possible for both modes, but it will not be the same.

Some students will prefer coming to campus, others will not or cannot. I am worried that there will be a F2F drop off rate bit by bit (on saying that, some students do not come into classes much anyway).

There has been full-on work from everyone all summer in universities: hampered by the pathetic government. Also: remember that many staff are/were on zero hours contracts. Many were axed or section 118s served (Sheffield!). VRs are rife. All chickens home to roost now because smaller class sizes for social distancing = staffing issues in some places.

Academics (and all uni staff) care about students, We will do all we can, but the government needs to take the market out of HE and stop this insanity that forces unis to promise a campus experience.