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Original poster

Think the focus should shift to university

390 replies

CKBJ · 29/08/2020 20:30

I am still concerned for my children to return to school, not because I think they will become unwell but the risk of Covid entering our house where vulnerable grandparents live with us and for the teaching staff who seem to have little protection. However, not much is being said about universities opening in a few weeks and the new focus should be this.

Many, many students will be moving into halls of residence and student houses bringing together students from all over the country. Independent sage has been arguing for all courses unless they require lab/practical elements to be offered online and remotely. This won’t suit all students but does give them an option and possibly reduce the amount of students moving around the country. Fees should be reduced accordingly. As the majority of students use a student loan to pay fees, they should only be responsible for paying for say 3/4s back and the 1/4 is covered by the government therefore meaning the university doesn’t lose any funding. The government seems to find money for many other things.

I was just considering the education side but obviously there is the whole social side as well. Many cities will have an influx of students into their pubs and bars. This could put a lot of pressure on the local areas increasing the possibility of transmission.

It seems nearly every year there are outbreaks of Meningitis and other illnesses that seem to occur when students all gather together. These aren’t going away, they will still be a risk and the added risk will be Covid.

I’m grateful I my children are not heading off to university this year but do feel for those who are and their families. Anyone else have any thoughts?

OP posts:
notevenat20 · 31/08/2020 11:19

Professional services staff are vital to the running of a university

A business can't function without a well run "back office" that is clear. However they are also a cost to the business so you have to make sure it is as slim as possible. It looks from the published finances of universities that their back office costs are hugely higher than any business would allow and also growing over time.

SueEllenMishke · 31/08/2020 11:21

@notevenat20

Professional services staff are vital to the running of a university

A business can't function without a well run "back office" that is clear. However they are also a cost to the business so you have to make sure it is as slim as possible. It looks from the published finances of universities that their back office costs are hugely higher than any business would allow and also growing over time.

Do you work at a university?
Peaseblossom22 · 31/08/2020 11:25

@notevenat20 I think you have to consider what is classified as ‘back office’ . For example that would include library services, registry, careers service, accommodation offices. All of these are fundamental to a university education but are not ‘frontline’ ( although some would beg to differ)

SueEllenMishke · 31/08/2020 11:30

[quote Peaseblossom22]@notevenat20 I think you have to consider what is classified as ‘back office’ . For example that would include library services, registry, careers service, accommodation offices. All of these are fundamental to a university education but are not ‘frontline’ ( although some would beg to differ)[/quote]
Exactly! All professions in their own right, staff are usually qualified to at least masters level ( and often beyond) and are key to the success of a university...... hardly 'back office' staff.

notevenat20 · 31/08/2020 11:32

I think you have to consider what is classified as ‘back office’ . For example that would include library services, registry, careers service, accommodation offices. All of these are fundamental to a university education but are not ‘frontline’ ( although some would beg to differ)

That is fair. If I were performing a review I would certainly like to see a full list as universities have many more back office staff than that these days.

I wonder what percentage of the costs of a university are academic staff these days.

titchy · 31/08/2020 11:33

And IT staff - the ones responsible for IT infrastructure to support remote learning and working.

HR and payroll are quite important too.

What other non-teaching non-revenue generating staff could we cut? Mental health services? Disability services?

Marketing maybe? Cos who wants to go to open days. Oh wait...

titchy · 31/08/2020 11:34

universities have many more back office staff than that these days.*

Name some then.

Newgirls · 31/08/2020 11:36

Titchy - if course some uni staff have kids - I know loads! But it’s clear from some responses that some don’t and are here for their own agenda. It is a parenting site - there are many other places to discuss employment issues such as UCU - I think some are here just to argue with parents, many of whom are worried about teen mental health.

Considering how much is being said about terrible work loads there does seem to be time to argue with stressed worried parents - perhaps that time could be spent picking up some phones which is certainly not happening at where my dd wants to go

SueEllenMishke · 31/08/2020 11:39

If I were performing a review I would certainly like to see a full list as universities have many more back office staff than that these days.

Why are you calling them 'back office' staff? Professional Services is far more appropriate. These are professions in their own right.

And why is this an issue? I'm the only academic teaching on my course but to make it run efficiently and successfully I needs course administrators, marketing staff, timetable staff, attendance monitoring, library, IT, Registry, Careers, well being...... and I'm sure I will have missed some.

SueEllenMishke · 31/08/2020 11:43

Considering how much is being said about terrible work loads there does seem to be time to argue with stressed worried parents - perhaps that time could be spent picking up some phones which is certainly not happening at where my dd wants to go

It's a bank holiday.

I'd personally try email as in the current climate that will be more effective than phoning. Although, we're starting to get staff back on campus from tomorrow so you may have more luck

notevenat20 · 31/08/2020 11:52

Why are you calling them 'back office' staff? Professional Services is far more appropriate. These are professions in their own right.

People in the back office are skilled and trained of course. It just means they are supporting the people who bring in the money.

Flamingolingo · 31/08/2020 11:52

Ugh. I can’t believe I’m dignifying this with a response.

Yes. I have children.

I’m also probably what you would consider ‘back office’ staff as I’m not student facing (well not UG), and not research active. I have an enterprise role and my job centres on REF. I am highly specialised, with great credentials (educational and professional) and am quite valuable to the university financially (or at least the work I do is). They don’t, however, reward this with job security.

I’m not going to spend some time ‘picking up phones’ because the university is full of highly specialist staff, and if I were able to get near an appropriate phone I wouldn’t know what to say. I wouldn’t be able to help your daughter.

Without my colleagues in the professional services, the university would not run. The pandemic would have been a complete omnishambles. Some of my friends worked tirelessly behind the scenes trying to make sure students stranded in halls were safe, trying to train and roll out new systems and paradigms for online learning. This is something that has been in the pipeline for universities for a long time, but not everyone at the coal face of teaching has adopted blended learning styles yet, and there is a huge amount of pedagogical change. Some of my friends have been battling the A level fiasco. I have been trying to work out which impact case studies are still viable in an economic crash and with shifting goalposts in terms of timelines.

It’s clear that most parents don’t have the first clue of what a university actually does and how many staff are needed to deliver it. Student experience is a huge part of university business, but not the only part.

Flamingolingo · 31/08/2020 11:54

@notevenat20 - not even true. There are many income streams for universities. Fees, accommodation, services (food, sport, recreation), research, REF... there are very few actual back office staff according to your definition. Possibly HR, legal, and payroll, but that’s about it (and those are vital). Everyone else is directly supporting an income stream

notevenat20 · 31/08/2020 11:55

My friends posh (half boarding) prep school is proud that half of their costs are the teacher salaries. I wonder if a university can say the same thing

SueEllenMishke · 31/08/2020 11:56

@notevenat20

Why are you calling them 'back office' staff? Professional Services is far more appropriate. These are professions in their own right.

People in the back office are skilled and trained of course. It just means they are supporting the people who bring in the money.

We call them professional services - if you're going to critique how universities are run at least get the terminology right. And you've still not explained why having high numbers of these staff is an issue?
notevenat20 · 31/08/2020 11:57

Fees, accommodation, services (food, sport, recreation), research, REF...

The accommodation makes no profit typically I am told. Fees, research and REF are money academics bring in.

SueEllenMishke · 31/08/2020 11:57

@notevenat20

My friends posh (half boarding) prep school is proud that half of their costs are the teacher salaries. I wonder if a university can say the same thing
Universities are very different to schools.
Bwlch · 31/08/2020 11:58

It's a bank holiday

Plus more staff have had to take annual leave during August as it was impossible earlier and September is going to be busier than usual.

notevenat20 · 31/08/2020 12:02

And you've still not explained why having high numbers of these staff is an issue?

Oh sorry I thought that was obvious. Teaching and research bring in money. This is done directly by academics who also provide the academic reputation of the university.

The more it costs to provide these through back office costs the more the university has to find ways to commercialise the business. And that commercialisation is harmful in my view. Just as one example, universities now routinely reject UK students in favour of higher paying overseas students.

SueEllenMishke · 31/08/2020 12:03

notevenat20 I'm an academic and my husband is what you are calling back office staff.... he earns double my salary because his role is strategically important to the success and reputation of his university.

There is no similar role in a school as it's not needed. You can't compare school finances with university finances.

SueEllenMishke · 31/08/2020 12:04

@notevenat20

And you've still not explained why having high numbers of these staff is an issue?

Oh sorry I thought that was obvious. Teaching and research bring in money. This is done directly by academics who also provide the academic reputation of the university.

The more it costs to provide these through back office costs the more the university has to find ways to commercialise the business. And that commercialisation is harmful in my view. Just as one example, universities now routinely reject UK students in favour of higher paying overseas students.

You really don't understand how universities work do you?
Bwlch · 31/08/2020 12:06

My friends posh (half boarding) prep school is proud that half of their costs are the teacher salaries. I wonder if a university can say the same thing

How many millions does your friend's posh school spend on research?

Unless the answer is in three figures, I'm not impressed.

Flamingolingo · 31/08/2020 12:08

No.

Fees are money the university brings in by providing an excellent student experience. Teaching is a huge part of that. But not the only thing that matters.

Research funding comes in through the academics and their ideas, but rigorous procedures for both pre and post award requirements mean that chunks of professional services staff are needed.

REF is only indirectly brought in by academics and the quality of their research outputs. The complex REF submission is delivered by a dedicated REF team. And the impact stuff is often done by people like me who work closely to make academic research impactful.

But the biggest problem with your argument is that prof services staff are actually comparatively cheap.

titchy · 31/08/2020 12:08

@notevenat20

My friends posh (half boarding) prep school is proud that half of their costs are the teacher salaries. I wonder if a university can say the same thing
Yes they can.
GCAcademic · 31/08/2020 12:09

A lot of these back office roles also exist to service a very bureaucratically-onerous audit culture that has its tentacles in virtually every aspect of university activity. Successive governments have heaped audits and assessments onto the sector, and the manpower required to service this is significant. It's getting to the point where the REF is in danger of costing some universities more than it will bring in.