Surely shops aren't allowed to do this?

[AntFarm]

Our local post office/store has got a sign up outside stating that everyone entering must wear a mask and that exempt people must show proof of exemption before entering. It then goes on to list proof of exemption as :

A doctor's note on headed paper
Exemption letter from DWP
Hidden disabilities exemption card

If you cannot wear a mask and do not have any of these then you are not allowed to enter. They have, so generously, said that children under the age of 11 do not need to show proof.

I am not exempt, neither is anyone in my family, and we all happily wear masks no problem. It just doesn't seem right or fair that someone should have to show medical or personal documents to someone in a shop!

A shop can set any rules eg no jeans (unless discriminatory such as no cakes with gay people on which was one court case).

However exemptions include that you feel extreme distress and you can download free exemption cards on line as people have said above.

A post office has a statutory function however so to bar someone who is exempt by narrowing down the exemptions might not be lawful for a post office but could be for the shop part of it.

The sooner we remove the mandatory part of the masks rules the better.

I have an exemption lanyard in my handbag but not brought myself to use it yet which is a tragedy and shows just how much pressure is being put on the exempt due to our current mob rule on these matters and the way these things have brought out the worst in so many people.

I don’t think someone would be able to get a certificate saying they had been gagged and raped.

I saw a poor lady on the news talking about this very example.

I doubt in most cases they would want to disclose that to some idiot village shop assistant either.

@Vodkacranberryplease, no obviously i don't buy food at the post office, the PO in question isn't near me thankfully, but should other shops decide to go for the same tactic, what then?
I can't leave him in the car, theres every chance he will decide to pull the handbrake up, and cause chaos. he loves the PO as it happens, as one of his duties at his job is to take the mail to be posted, so going to the PO for him is a treat and he'd be upset if he couldn't go with me.
I've mostly been surviving during lockdown with the help of neighbours and a local community council delivery service, but as time goes on and people return to work, these services wind down. which means if i go to tesco, he comes to tesco unless hes at work, but thats usually when i'm at work too.
in ordinary times i have respite care, and social clubs and various things he can do, none of those run currently. its hard work for disabled people and their families and frankly i don't see why the burden is on me to prove something, when the law says i don't have to. enough of my life is spent jumping through bureaucratic hoops ( PIP applications every couple of years despite the fact hes never going to not be autistic, blue badge applications, direct payments to manage, fighting to get his ehcp sorted, etc etc) and its fucking exhausting. i'm not about to beg and scrape to provide somehting i do not have to. I have enough to do.

No not a martyr. I am just not a fuckwit. Or a selfish cunt that doesn't care if I put others at risk. It's only a mask. An inconvenience. Why wouldn't anyone if they could?

This thread is about people who cannot wear masks, not those that don’t want to.

(unless discriminatory such as no cakes with gay people on which was one court case)

Which was a court case the shop won, they were entitled to refuse to create a cake with the slogan "support gay marriage" - they were (ultimately) found not to be discriminating against the individuals, they were refusing because they disagreed with the slogan. Regardless though I can't see how the case has any bearing on mask wearing.

The attitudes towards those who can’t wear masks that these threads draw out are appalling.

[quote OwlBeThere]@Vodkacranberryplease, no obviously i don't buy food at the post office, the PO in question isn't near me thankfully, but should other shops decide to go for the same tactic, what then?
I can't leave him in the car, theres every chance he will decide to pull the handbrake up, and cause chaos. he loves the PO as it happens, as one of his duties at his job is to take the mail to be posted, so going to the PO for him is a treat and he'd be upset if he couldn't go with me.
I've mostly been surviving during lockdown with the help of neighbours and a local community council delivery service, but as time goes on and people return to work, these services wind down. which means if i go to tesco, he comes to tesco unless hes at work, but thats usually when i'm at work too.
in ordinary times i have respite care, and social clubs and various things he can do, none of those run currently. its hard work for disabled people and their families and frankly i don't see why the burden is on me to prove something, when the law says i don't have to. enough of my life is spent jumping through bureaucratic hoops ( PIP applications every couple of years despite the fact hes never going to not be autistic, blue badge applications, direct payments to manage, fighting to get his ehcp sorted, etc etc) and its fucking exhausting. i'm not about to beg and scrape to provide somehting i do not have to. I have enough to do.[/quote]
Nobody reasonable could blame you for such a refusal. And well done for staying calm in response to that particular post. I'd have struggled.

@Vodkacranberryplease i think you mean well, but this isn't a 'well i don't have to so i wont' kind of thing, its a 'this doesn't exist, my doctor wont do it, because he is working under immense pressure and doesn't have to provide such things by law, so isn't going to' thing. I realise its cheap to buy one, but my income is swallowed up by necesssary expenses for things you don't have a clue about, (and that isn't meant rudely, i wouldn't expect you to know!) and spending money on something when actually it isn't of any use because anyone can buy one, so people can still have something to say about it, ergo, it doesn't reduce my stress in any way.
I don't think the PO and other business doing this kind of thing are spiteful, I think they are misinformed and uneducated about what their reach is in enforcement of masks, and their obligations to the disabled community.

I keep seeing people on Mumsnet talking about people who think the rules don't apply to them

Unfortunately true. The reason shops are having to put up notices like this is because too many people are making an excuse not to wear a mask. Blame them, not the shop.

@PiataMaiNei thank you, i try, as much as i can, to remember that lots of people are blissfully unaware of life with disabled children/dependents, and so i try to educate calmly wherever possible. but i'm also not a walk over and i won't be bullied into doing something I am not required to just because it may make others feel better.

If it can be done easily (and that's a lottery probably) if it's a quick phone call or a conversation next time you are at the doctors then do try. A small effort for a much larger payback. It's not about the law it's about being practical and not having that shit when you go out. He might rather like having a 'special pass' for the post office!

@Vodkacranberryplease you are really not getting that doctors just do not issue the sort of note/certificate/badge/whatever that you are imagining. Medical evidence is not required. Many trusts have specific guidance about this...

www.burtondocs.co.uk/2020/07/21/face-mask-exemption-letters-no-gp-medical-letter-needed/

These genetic badges can be downloaded and printed to put on a lanyard if the child would tolerate wearing one, which absolutely isn’t a given. Your flippant comment about liking having a pass for the post office is ill informed given many autistic children have sensory issues with clothing rubbing.

www.sheffieldccg.nhs.uk/Downloads/Your%20health/mask%20exemption%20cards.pdf

And it is Tesco. Not Tesco’s.

@PurpleDaisies, very true. i can no more get him to wear a lanyard than i can a mask. some days its hard enough to persuade him that we wear shoes outside .

@Jaxhog

I keep seeing people on Mumsnet talking about people who think the rules don't apply to them

Unfortunately true. The reason shops are having to put up notices like this is because too many people are making an excuse not to wear a mask. Blame them, not the shop.

Not only do they not have to, they aren't allowed to, and as a hidden disabilities card can be downloaded by anyone, it doesn't prove anything. The only people to blame for these policies are the ones stupid and badly informed enough to enact them.

Surely the whole point of this shop saying that, is because they know that no one will be able to produce that paperwork? Or can't be bothered to try to get it and will therefore either wear a face covering or go and shop elsewhere?

They are playing a game of bluff- that's obvious.

FWIW my local Waitrose announces over their paging system that customers must wear a face covering. They can't and won't go as far as asking for some kind of 'proof' as it doesn't exist.

But any shop, pub or restaurant can refuse to serve anyone, and that's always been so, even before Covid.

@JinglingHellsBells

Surely the whole point of this shop saying that, is because they know that no one will be able to produce that paperwork? Or can't be bothered to try to get it and will therefore either wear a face covering or go and shop elsewhere?

They are playing a game of bluff- that's obvious.

FWIW my local Waitrose announces over their paging system that customers must wear a face covering. They can't and won't go as far as asking for some kind of 'proof' as it doesn't exist.

But any shop, pub or restaurant can refuse to serve anyone, and that's always been so, even before Covid.

however, since this post office is being clear that the reason is due to non mask wearing AND asking for proof which is not a legal right for them to ask, then they are being discriminatory.

@JinglingHellsBells

Surely the whole point of this shop saying that, is because they know that no one will be able to produce that paperwork? Or can't be bothered to try to get it and will therefore either wear a face covering or go and shop elsewhere?

They are playing a game of bluff- that's obvious.

FWIW my local Waitrose announces over their paging system that customers must wear a face covering. They can't and won't go as far as asking for some kind of 'proof' as it doesn't exist.

But any shop, pub or restaurant can refuse to serve anyone, and that's always been so, even before Covid.

I can't speak to their motivation, but the hidden disabilities cards can be obtained by anyone at all. There isn't a vetting process or regulation. Look, I could download and print one now and I'm not exempt.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own

And no, any shop, pub or restaurant can't refuse to serve anyone if the reason given would breach the Equality Act.

And no, any shop, pub or restaurant can't refuse to serve anyone if the reason given would breach the Equality Act.

@PiataMaiNei I thought it was obvious that I wasn't bringing that into it. Yes, they can't break laws on discrimination but outside of that law they can choose who to serve and who not to (ie a pub can turn away someone who has had one too many.)

Hi all and thanks for the reports about this thread.

We have been through and removed any posts that we felt broke our Talk Guidelines. We have noticed that many of the deletions have been for disablist posts.

Do take a look at our This Is My Child Campaign especially the Myths about Special needs (would be good to paste in a specific Myth if relevent to the thread or more content as and when we get it) and consider the challenges many parents of children with disabilities, or who have disabilities themselves, face on a daily basis.

Mumsnet exists to make parent's lives easier and if there's one thing we could all do with - especially in these uncertain times we're all living through - it's some understanding and moral support.

For clarity on the question raised by the OP, please do also take a look at the government's stance on masks here.

Thanks everyone.

Put pleDaisies

“The staff in a post office will be behind screens.“

Ours has a screen, with a great big hole in it for parcels 🤷‍♀️

@Willow2017

If you cannot wear a mask (and that is a tiny, tiny minority- there have been medics talking about this online and there is hardly anyone who cannot wear a mask for the time they are in a corner shop- maybe 5 or 10 minutes? ) then ask someone else to do your shopping or errands. So some random 'medics' (wtf does that even mean?) knows everyone in the world's personal circumstances and everything about every disease and disability and mental health illness there is then? The people with TN, PTSD from being gagged while raped, autism, and a thousand other things which would make wearing mask unbearable? They should all stay at home, not go to work, not spend thier money but expect others to do it while they sit at home twiddling thier thumbs wondering how to pay the rent with no money coming in?

You see you say “people with autism” others say “people with asthma” or “people with COPD” - this means that EVERYONE with any of these conditions can then choose not to wear a mask. I know people with all of those conditions, one with two of them, but they all wear masks quite happily - my neighbour with COPD only wears it briefly when inside the shop but can manage it for 5 or 10 minutes.

If a surgeon has asthma are they exempt from wearing a mask while operating? Of course they aren’t!

Personally I think those who can’t have something over their face because of trauma have a much stronger reason for being exempt than someone with mild asthma.

You do have to prove your entitlement to a disabled parking space (without revealing the reason) so you should be able to get proof of exemption from mask wearing. Hardly anyone wears masks where I am - no way do 90% of my local population have a relevant exemption.

"You do have to prove your entitlement to a disabled parking space (without revealing the reason) so you should be able to get proof of exemption from mask wearing."

As must have been said on this thread a dozen times already there is no proof of the exemption and the government isn't providing one.
If you think it is so important, campaign for one. Are you doing that?

You do have to prove your entitlement to a disabled parking space (without revealing the reason) so you should be able to get proof of exemption from mask wearing. Hardly anyone wears masks where I am - no way do 90% of my local population have a relevant exemption

First off. No such proof exists. And second.you don’t know who has or hasn’t an exception.

@JinglingHellsBells

And no, any shop, pub or restaurant can't refuse to serve anyone if the reason given would breach the Equality Act.

@PiataMaiNei I thought it was obvious that I wasn't bringing that into it. Yes, they can't break laws on discrimination but outside of that law they can choose who to serve and who not to (ie a pub can turn away someone who has had one too many.)

It wasn't obvious in the slightest no, what with you making zero mention of the EA and it meaning that your point makes no sense.

@Doccomplaint

You do have to prove your entitlement to a disabled parking space (without revealing the reason) so you should be able to get proof of exemption from mask wearing. Hardly anyone wears masks where I am - no way do 90% of my local population have a relevant exemption

First off. No such proof exists. And second.you don’t know who has or hasn’t an exception.

I KNOW there isn’t any current evidence of exemption! I said I think there SHOULD be one. And I KNOW I don’t know who has or hasn’t an exemption (my own son is technically exempt but prefers to wear a mask) but I am pretty certain that the 90+% of people around here not wearing masks are NOT exempt! If that proportion of the population were genuinely exempt the mask rule would not have been introduced.