Surely shops aren't allowed to do this?

[AntFarm]

Our local post office/store has got a sign up outside stating that everyone entering must wear a mask and that exempt people must show proof of exemption before entering. It then goes on to list proof of exemption as :

A doctor's note on headed paper
Exemption letter from DWP
Hidden disabilities exemption card

If you cannot wear a mask and do not have any of these then you are not allowed to enter. They have, so generously, said that children under the age of 11 do not need to show proof.

I am not exempt, neither is anyone in my family, and we all happily wear masks no problem. It just doesn't seem right or fair that someone should have to show medical or personal documents to someone in a shop!

The exemption certificates they are asking for do not exist...so this is pretty silly behaviour.

Also, an individual post office can't just make up its own rules and deny access.

Report them through the Post Office general website or even your local council and let them deal with it.

There is an exception thing you can download. You can print or get it on your phone.

Not ideal I agree (my ds is exempt)

But on the flip side my local shop had 5 teens come in yesterday when spaces allowed only 2 more. All with scooters and shouting down aisles at each other. Not social distancing and one came so close when I was paying our arms touched.

I wish I had refused to pay until he moved back but I didn't think of that afterwards!

It was really sad seeing the elderly wincing and looking fearful. Because they are actually at risk - even if these lads probably aren't.

There is an exception thing you can download. You can print or get it on your phone.

'You' being anyone, whether genuinely exempt or otherwise. I'm not exempt, and the only thing to prevent me from running one off now and using it, if I fancy, is that the printer's out of ink. So this policy isn't just not ideal, it's also pointless.

You see you say “people with autism” others say “people with asthma” or “people with COPD” - this means that EVERYONE with any of these conditions can then choose not to wear a mask.

No, it doesn't.

You are exempt from wearing a face covering if you cannot put on, wear or remove one because of a mental or physical disability, illness or impairment, or because it would cause you severe distress.

So people need to stop saying 'I know someone with x condition and they can wear one,' or 'I'm technically exempt but I wear one anyway.'

There will be people who cannot wear one because of ASD, asthma, COPD or other conditions and they are exempt. There will also be people who have asthma, ASD, COPD or whatever who can wear one. They are not exempt.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own#when-you-do-not-need-to-wear-a-face-covering

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/791/regulation/4/made

Agree. But I also think people who are genuinely exempt are less likely to know this or where to get a lanyard with exemption because they don't actually need to know.

They certainly are less likely to pay for one off the internet!

I think it's probable it'll cut down some of the tryers rather than the genuine?

I don't know what the answer is tbh. I do think though disability rights are not great in this country. I think a general lack of respect for disabled people means people have no sense of embarrassment in pretending for their own gain.

Yet my dd with Autism who genuinely tried to wear a mask feels guilty and self conscious when out about and not on one.

[quote LangClegsInSpace]You see you say “people with autism” others say “people with asthma” or “people with COPD” - this means that EVERYONE with any of these conditions can then choose not to wear a mask.

No, it doesn't.

You are exempt from wearing a face covering if you cannot put on, wear or remove one because of a mental or physical disability, illness or impairment, or because it would cause you severe distress.

So people need to stop saying 'I know someone with x condition and they can wear one,' or 'I'm technically exempt but I wear one anyway.'

There will be people who cannot wear one because of ASD, asthma, COPD or other conditions and they are exempt. There will also be people who have asthma, ASD, COPD or whatever who can wear one. They are not exempt.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own#when-you-do-not-need-to-wear-a-face-covering

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/791/regulation/4/made[/quote]
Great post

[quote LangClegsInSpace]You see you say “people with autism” others say “people with asthma” or “people with COPD” - this means that EVERYONE with any of these conditions can then choose not to wear a mask.

No, it doesn't.

You are exempt from wearing a face covering if you cannot put on, wear or remove one because of a mental or physical disability, illness or impairment, or because it would cause you severe distress.

So people need to stop saying 'I know someone with x condition and they can wear one,' or 'I'm technically exempt but I wear one anyway.'

There will be people who cannot wear one because of ASD, asthma, COPD or other conditions and they are exempt. There will also be people who have asthma, ASD, COPD or whatever who can wear one. They are not exempt.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own#when-you-do-not-need-to-wear-a-face-covering

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/791/regulation/4/made[/quote]
That IS a great post - I’ve read things (including in the press and on MN) saying that all people with (for example) autism, asthma are exempt. What you have posted shows that in fact, far fewer people are exempt than that generalisation.

So why are so few people wearing masks?

So why are so few people wearing masks?

That really depends where you are. I’ve been at a big shopping centre today and everyone (except kids and one older lady6 was wearing one. Compliance where I am is easily over 90%.

You are exempt from wearing a face covering if you cannot put on, wear or remove one because of a mental or physical disability, illness or impairment, or because it would cause you severe distress.

You’ve missed out being with someone who needs to lip read.

Yes, that's true PurpleDaisies.

Shops, including post offices are bound by the EA as providers of goods and services. They are not allowed to discriminate against disabled people and this includes indirect discrimination (having a blanket rule that disproportionately affects disabled people) and harassment (doing something that has the purpose or effect of violating a disabled person's dignity, or creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for them).

The notices this PO has put up could very well constitute harassment.

Indirect discrimination can be lawful if it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. Preventing the spread of the virus is of course a legitimate aim but a blanket 'no mask - no entry' rule would not be a proportionate means. Masks alone just don't make enough difference to justify excluding those who cannot wear one from the shop.

Shops and post offices are required to make reasonable adjustments to prevent indirect discrimination against disabled customers. Exemption from wearing a face covering is a reasonable adjustment. They are not allowed to harass disabled customers by demanding to see proof that does not exist, or make people give details of their health conditions.

Thankfully the government has been very clear about this, all that is needed is for shop owners to comply with the law and follow the guidance. I agree with a PP, the owner of the PO is probably well intentioned and needs guidance rather than a threat of legal action at this stage.

@itsgettingweird

Agree. But I also think people who are genuinely exempt are less likely to know this or where to get a lanyard with exemption because they don't actually need to know.

They certainly are less likely to pay for one off the internet!

I think it's probable it'll cut down some of the tryers rather than the genuine?

I don't know what the answer is tbh. I do think though disability rights are not great in this country. I think a general lack of respect for disabled people means people have no sense of embarrassment in pretending for their own gain.

Yet my dd with Autism who genuinely tried to wear a mask feels guilty and self conscious when out about and not on one.

The one I linked to upthread on the gov.uk site is free!

"That IS a great post - I’ve read things (including in the press and on MN) saying that all people with (for example) autism, asthma are exempt."

The only people who say all people with autism or asthma are exempt are people who say " I am exempt but I wear a mask" which obviously doesn't make sense because if you can wear one you are not exempt.

Looking at all the conditions that mean someone could be exempt that does mean there are millions of people that could be exempt. That doesn't explain why allegedly half the people in every supermarket someone goes in are not wearing masks but it will not be a 'vanishingly small' 'tiny number' either.

The only people who say all people with autism or asthma are exempt are people who say " I am exempt but I wear a mask" which obviously doesn't make sense because if you can wear one you are not exempt.

Fantastic post.

I can’t wear a mask therefore I am exempt.

There is no official certificate from a doctor or official exemption letter from DWP. ANYONE can download the exemption letter off the gov.uk website.

But it’s like all the people who were castigating people for going out and about when we were in lockdown and saying you are only allowed out for xyz reason, when that’s not what the legislation said.

@Doccomplaint

Fantastic post.

I can’t wear a mask therefore I am exempt.

There is no official certificate from a doctor or official exemption letter from DWP. ANYONE can download the exemption letter off the gov.uk website.

But it’s like all the people who were castigating people for going out and about when we were in lockdown and saying you are only allowed out for xyz reason, when that’s not what the legislation said.

Yes, it's exactly like that. Some are genuinely ignorant, some aren't but want to bully people into complying with what they think the law ought to be.

So in short, only wear a mask if you want to wear one. Otherwise you are exempt.

The whole debate is pretty pointless. As long as no one can enforce a rule, then that rule doesn't matter and is not a rule. Utterly pointless to argue one way or another when the result is the same: if you chose not to wear a mask, nothing happens.

So in short, only wear a mask if you want to wear one. Otherwise you are exempt.

Not true.

"So in short, only wear a mask if you want to wear one. Otherwise you are exempt."

Incorrect
If you can wear a mask wear one. If you can't you are exempt.

FWIW my local Waitrose announces over their paging system that customers must wear a face covering. They can't and won't go as far as asking for some kind of 'proof' as it doesn't exist.

The co-op safety one ends by saying something along the lines of "please remember some people are exempt from wearing mask and respect that."
It's the only placed have heard that.

BuggerOffAndGoodDayToYou

I did not say that everyone with every exemption DID NOT have to wear a mask. It's blindingly obvious if they can and chose to that it's thier decision.

However it's nothing to do with anyone else who has the same health status who cannot wear one.

I wear glasses so does my son. It doesn't mean they are identical glasses does it?
I have an auto immune disease. I do not have all the symptoms some people have and they might not have all of mine but that doesn't mean I don't have the disease!
It's not rocket science not everyone has the exact same symptoms nor reactions nor severity for every known exemption mentioned.

Only in Britain is this a thing. Meanwhile, the rest of Europe just wear a mask to go in shops. I can't get worked up about it.

Seen what’s happening in Berlin @Pluckedpencil?

@Willow2017

BuggerOffAndGoodDayToYou

I did not say that everyone with every exemption DID NOT have to wear a mask. It's blindingly obvious if they can and chose to that it's thier decision.

However it's nothing to do with anyone else who has the same health status who cannot wear one.

I wear glasses so does my son. It doesn't mean they are identical glasses does it?
I have an auto immune disease. I do not have all the symptoms some people have and they might not have all of mine but that doesn't mean I don't have the disease!
It's not rocket science not everyone has the exact same symptoms nor reactions nor severity for every known exemption mentioned.

No you didn’t say that. I didn’t say you said that. What I said was “ this means that EVERYONE with any of these conditions can then choose not to wear a mask.“ as that is definitely what I’ve seen happening.

I KNOW there is no proof of exemption available. I KNOW there are hidden disabilities. I know there are variations in levels of disability. I also KNOW that people are deciding they are exempt when they actually just don’t want to bother with a mask. Both my DCs have hidden disabilities, both their disabilities appear on (Obviously not official) “exemption lists” that we have all seen - neither of them are affected by wearing a mask.

DS has been advised by his college that he is exempt from wearing a mask in communal areas because of his disability. This upset him as his disability also means that he interprets this as “you can’t wear a mask” so I’ve had to contact the college and to say he WILL be wearing a mask, and asked them to confirm to him that he is allowed to do so. He is actually more distressed about not being allowed to wear one in class.....

Perhaps I will send the college one of the links @LangClegsInSpace shared as they were very good.

I'm not sure why people who are vulnerable and would die if they got this thing are fighting so hard for the rights of everyone to not wear masks. If I had a compromised immune system or respiratory system I would most certainly not be pushing for masks to be completely optional.

I would instead be petitioning the govt to set up a robust and easy to use system for the relatively small number of people who couldn't because the more people not doing it the greater the risk.

And I wouldn't be going anywhere if it was unsafe thanks to people not wanting to wear masks. Which is as much of an erosion of my freedom as insisting on masks without exception certs which may or may not exist currently.

And yet here we are. People fighting tooth and nail for their right to be less safe even though they have the most to lose.

I'm not sure why people who are vulnerable and would die if they got this thing are fighting so hard for the rights of everyone to not wear masks.

That’s a misrepresentation of the situation. People are fighting for people who can’t wear masks to be able to do so in peace.