Safe to reopen schools

[askmehowiknow]

Article from oxford professor summarising new data that it's safe for children to be in school. Great pre September reading!

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/18/children-covid-19-english-schools-virus-safe-reopening

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss

*I think a lot of people seem so keen on get students back to school they miss the safely (and this means for all, including staff and the wider community). I will only count schools back as a success if we don't have widespread closures. It is pointless opening schools fully in September if by doing so they mostly end up shut by October half term.

I wouldn’t see not closing as a sign of success. I’d say no deaths or serious cases as a sign of success more. It suits many for them to be open but they have adults in them, vulnerable children and then vulnerable/older family members at home. What other workplaces (bar emergency services) have no SD and no PPE in place and are expected to be in a room all day with at least thirty others?

Maybe I didn't word it well. I was going for closures as that is easier to measure. It is much harder to prove that a death or serious illness is caused by school - especially if it is a linked case in the community (parents for example). As I expect it to spread through the students first (and they are unlikely to be seriously ill) then I think closures will be the first measurable outcome. Also it is directly opposed to everyone back to school, and therefore defeats the stated aim of the government, so by that measure they would have failed.

Uhoh if wanting social distancing and masks and ventilation is so unreasonable, why doesn't that apply to every other work place or public indoor space then?

And those other viruses didn't cause am extra 60,000 deaths did they?

The thing is the viewpoint of opening without mitigations is as extreme as you believe a viewpoint of complete closure until vaccine to be.

There are compromises that can be made but they take work, effort and, in some cases, funding. They are not impossible just politically inconvenient for a current Government.

I've said this before and will probably say it again but these things should be at least considered:

School-based measures could be secure funding for enhanced cleaning, the use of visors or windowed face coverings or screens to help reduce transmission, the tightening of restrictions on the attendance of unwell children, etc.

Community-based measures could be things like better distancing for families and their children, possible restrictions on how open our society is (as stated by the scientific advisors) and making it easier for parents to take leave to care for an unwell child or one who is having to isolate due to a positive result from someone else in the classroom (this would include Government support for the businesses that this affected).

And to improve remote learning if/when it's needed there needs to be support and funding put in place to ensure that all students can access online learning platforms. This includes investment in technology (that was said was coming but didn't) and in training for staff and online tutorials for parents to help them access a digital platform such as Google Classroom.

causes of death in schools

What are these OP? I hadn't realised they were so manifold.

After some deaths on school trips about 20 years ago, HUGE changes were made to risk assessment policies and paperwork. Each death has been followed up by extensive enquiries in recognition of the fact that school related deaths are to be avoided and are not something to just hope won't happen.

Other infectious (notifiable) disease are taken very seriously in schools.

Re your username, as you have been asked before, what is you area of expertise? How do you know?

@WhyNotMe40

And those other viruses didn't cause am extra 60,000 deaths did they?

Exactly.

This isn’t like other things usually going round in schools or the community. Those things didn’t need a lockdown, weren’t classed as a pandemic etc. They simply can’t be compared.

Some may want schools back at any cost and don’t appear to care about the risks to others, others want their children and other children/families and staff to be safe as well.

No other venue can operate without SD or PPE so why schools?

did you keep your children off school then too

Uh , if they were clinically vulnerable, hell yes!

We have to tell those children if these is eg shingles, in a school and they tend to stay at home.

When I was a teenager my best friend missed a year of school due to a post viral ME style illness which she contracted after a bout of mild flu

She has longlasting heart problems because of it

This is not a new thing that is exclusive to covid. It has always been around. The risk is still minimal.

There's a reason why this article is littered with modal verbs: we can't know until it's done which is why IMO we need a phased opening.

When I was at school there was a death in my class due to a lack of risk assessing.
I know first hand how traumatic that can be, and how long lasting those effects are.
I do not want to be part of a "suck it and see" lack of risk mitigation experiment. Especially when there are obvious mitigations that the rest of the world and the rest of our society are taking.

the tightening of restrictions on the attendance of unwell children, etc.

This is always interesting. Prof Snape even says in his article that 'of course children shouldn't be In school with flu like symptoms'. He has obviously never been in a school during flu season!

Parents tend to keep children off because the child is unwell, not because of public health concerns. If they think the child is coping , or recovered a bit, they send them in. They don't think for one second about the self isolation aspect (pre Covid) other than perhaps for D and V and conjunctivitis/skin complaints where guidelines are enforced in younger age groups pretty sternly.

If we are returning the youngest to school because of employment concerns for adults, we need to consider that those parents will also want to avoid their child being absent.

@WhyNotMe40

When I was at school there was a death in my class due to a lack of risk assessing. I know first hand how traumatic that can be, and how long lasting those effects are. I do not want to be part of a "suck it and see" lack of risk mitigation experiment. Especially when there are obvious mitigations that the rest of the world and the rest of our society are taking.

That's why this article is so reassuring. There is increasing amounts of data now so it won't be a suck it and see as it was pre lockdown

No there isn't much more data. It refers to incomplete studies and a hope.

How do you know??

You have NOT responded to anyone's comments unpicking the actual article and its uncertainties. Unfortunately you only seem to have read the headline , which has already gathered a large number of complaints to The Guardian.

@Piggywaspushed

causes of death in schools

What are these OP? I hadn't realised they were so manifold.

After some deaths on school trips about 20 years ago, HUGE changes were made to risk assessment policies and paperwork. Each death has been followed up by extensive enquiries in recognition of the fact that school related deaths are to be avoided and are not something to just hope won't happen.

Other infectious (notifiable) disease are taken very seriously in schools.

Re your username, as you have been asked before, what is you area of expertise? How do you know?

I would assume road traffic accidents on way to and from school the leading cause.

Viruses such as varicella, influenza, norovirus

Pneumonia and sepsis.

And as you say notifiable diseases including meningitis.

I just knew someone was going to post this article proclaiming it to show how there is nothing to worry about with regard to schools restarting. It tells us nothing new and is misleading as shown by the OP's gullibility.

@noblegiraffe

There is a demented fringe group who want them open at all costs with no safety measures at all for teachers and older pupils.

Here’s a handy checklist on how to spot them:

1. They will assume that anyone arguing for the safe re-opening of schools actually wants them to remain closed

2. They will suggest that any parent unhappy with the lack of mitigation measures deregister their child

3. They will suggest that any teacher unhappy with the lack of mitigation measures resign their job

4. They will slate teachers at any opportunity.

Eyes peeled.

I just wanted everyone to see this handy checklist again.

Been teaching 30 years.

you can't assume , you need facts.

In my career, at my old school, next tot he A1 , 5 RTAs in 5 years. This led to a huge public campaign and changes to the A1.

In the following 20 odd years, one boy knocked down (led to a zebra crossing being built), one girl from a heart condition (previously undiagnosed), one girl on a holiday abroad canyoning (which led to a change in H and S legislation) , two murders, sadly, one suicide. No one from the conditions you mention. Mainly because of vaccination!

In the 30 years I have been teaching, 3 colleagues have died : two from cancer and one suicide.

these things are very rare and always get followed by inquests and enquiries if they are children or ,for adults, work related.

@mrshoho

I just knew someone was going to post this article proclaiming it to show how there is nothing to worry about with regard to schools restarting. It tells us nothing new and is misleading as shown by the OP's gullibility.

Gullible to listen to the opinion and evidence summary of an Oxford paediatrician?

Should have said, by the way. only two of the road deaths were on the way to/from school.

No, gullible not to read and critically analyse the article, including looking fro bias,both from the author and the sub editor.

Read the comments BTL. Lots of unpicking.

@Piggywaspushed

Been teaching 30 years.

you can't assume , you need facts.

In my career, at my old school, next tot he A1 , 5 RTAs in 5 years. This led to a huge public campaign and changes to the A1.

In the following 20 odd years, one boy knocked down (led to a zebra crossing being built), one girl from a heart condition (previously undiagnosed), one girl on a holiday abroad canyoning (which led to a change in H and S legislation) , two murders, sadly, one suicide. No one from the conditions you mention. Mainly because of vaccination!

In the 30 years I have been teaching, 3 colleagues have died : two from cancer and one suicide.

these things are very rare and always get followed by inquests and enquiries if they are children or ,for adults, work related.

Of course they are thankfully.

However it's important to consider the risk of these vs the risk of covid to school children. Otherwise there is no context.

@PineappleUpsideDownCake

Completely agree with Count.

Im at risk as are many parents and teachers. So it's all very well saying nany kids are asymptomatic- but isn't that exactly how it will spread in crowded groups in enclosed spaces, as asymptomatic people wont realise they're spreading?

Im still shocked at the conditions teschers are expected to return in, and a bit curious about the propoganda on mumsnet....

The propaganda on mumsnet is the most alarming thing of all I agree.

ALL the things you mention have safety measures and most of the illnesses have vaccinations.

Gullible: you see OP, that it was announced that there would be considerable money spent on convincing parents that schools are safe.
And then this article appears.

Note that they are not spending money on actually making schools more safe. Just persuading parents that they are.