US Doctor On Opening Schools

[mac12]

Dr James Hildreth, CEO of an American hospital and public health adviser to the mayor of Nashville, has a clear message about the opening of schools.

6 minute video well worth everyone's time.

Alittleodd, I think what you say makes a lot of sense. At least it goes some way towards explaining why people are so vehemently against masks or SD of any sort.

Those arguing that teenagers can't wear them/will lose them etc, can't we stay the same about them wearing ties or bringing in pens?
Some will mess about lose them.
This isn't a reason not to allow ANY AT ALL.

They are also being expected to wear them on school busses, and to TAKE THEM OFF when they enter the school.

Shall we argue there's no point in asking them to wear them anywhere, ever? Because that's against the law currently for over 11s.

To counter that clip, there’s quite a lot of chat on twitter today about PHE sources saying that the numbers are so low the current measures are unnecessary in most areas.

As a PP said, yes it’s airborne but what matters is if what levels you need to be infected are there, and if it’s there in the first place. I wouldn’t fancy being in a room with a covid patient but at the moment the chances of being in a room with anyone with Covid where I live is very low. If schools go back, and we see cases rise, then think again. But at the moment we don’t know that will happen.

My main priority at the moment is looking for ways to help our mental health- so myself and dd are joining some gym classes, I am swimming, she will go to school.

It’s a week by week assessment.

I think teachers should be able to wear visors if they wish. Kids too. Masks no. I can’t hear anyone through a mask unless I am super close.

Mainly though, this is a long haul. Way too much hysteria about schools on here. We need to be more sustainable.

Also to add that that I always expect the worse, I have health anxiety due to a previous life threatening illness but even I don’t think the risk of catching it is that high at the moment even when schools go back .

Interesting thread on school reopening in Denmark, with follow up adding more detail and some corrections.

mobile.twitter.com/DGBassani/status/1294707856462295041

mobile.twitter.com/Goldammerfeder/status/1295089554697977856

I am wondering if the thinking is if they open up now fully then can keep a tab on cases and if it looks like it’s going up they can then introduce masks, then go part time before needing to consider closure?

Whereas if they put all the measures in place now there’s no wiggle room if cases go up anyway.

Raspberry - that's an interesting theory. My DDs school has written to us with a number system which indicates which measures will be taking. They're not starting with the slackest. There's room door movement in either direction.

It’s not really a theory, it was just a random pondering and made me wonder. Doing it this way when cases are very low (I’m in Scotland) maybe leaves a bit of leeway in case they go up.

My goodness that video sent shivers down my spine.

We really struggled with whether to send our DD back to school when they reopened. We wanted to know whether there were many cases in our local area, before we sent DD back.

I was fed up trying to find local covid info online and in the media.

So I sourced the data (the govt publishes the number of confirmed cases every day in each district council) and started analysing it and sending it to friends and family who were in the same boat and wanted to know what was happening locally.

We were lucky enough to live in a council that had virtually no cases at the time, and our neighbouring councils were similar. So we were happy for DD to go back school

Anyway, in the end I decided to set up a coronavirus data service. www.covidmessenger.com

Every day I compile the latest number of lab-confirmed, positive coronavirus cases across the country into a bitesize email – one for each district council in the UK – and deliver it straight to subscribers inboxes.

It provides people with a quick and convenient update on coronavirus cases in their area, enabling them to make informed decisions about their day to day activities.

I considered charging people £1/month per local area to pay for the server costs, but the thought that someone might want the information but might not be able to afford it felt horribly wrong to me.

So I’m paying for it myself and hoping to get local companies to sponsor us at a later date to keep it going.

Anyway - I apologise for the very long post but if it helps at all you are all welcome to sign up.

But this is one opinion, it’s constant. There are different opinions everyday. A few months ago a Nobel prizewinning scientist predicted the virus will start to decline around now in Europe which doesn’t appear to be the case....
If schools have to close, they have to close but totally agree with a pp that’s it’s totally deluded (and usually said by people who don’t have children or it doesn’t affect ) to suggest that kids can be just left at home for hours on end where they will all diligently study all day, like wtaf !? Also clearly loads of people will lose heir jobs with primary school children at home who need constant monitoring and educating. But if it’s too much of a risk and teachers and students start to contract the virus on a big scale and get really ill, maybe they will need to close.
Me and my dh have worked out a plan if our dcs all have to be at home , I have worked for years in e-learning and know that for under 10’s (groups of children), online classes do not work well and they would need constant parent supervision and imput.
Our school has been shut for almost 6 months and there has been absolutely no online teaching (this is the reality for us, I’m just stating a fact) so in reality I’d prefer to just organize their own online program with a company at hours that suited us re work (the online tutor market is saturated with highly qualified teachers ) and I’m not alone. We have also worked out a way of teaching core subjects that some of us and our friends have degrees etc in ( I have taught and so have others in schools before) and to suit the hours that some parents need to work .
There’s no way however that people can keep paying taxes towards schools that are no longer educating our children so if they have to close then I think things could start to change dramatically. The months my dcs were off their education was almost completely void.
We have a solid plan now but many of my friends are struggling with the uncertainty and trying to keep a livelihood so it’s time to think of alternatives. Parents who are worried should also start petitioning local politicians also , it’s something we are doing. Another 6 months of what we experienced during lockdown is totally unsustainable for us and our children. So if physical schools are no longer safe then it’s time to think very much about a new system.

@littleowl1
I signed up for your email updates and they are fantastic - thank you so much for all the hard work you put into this

place their own half-baked opinions above the considered views of world renowned experts in the field where children's lives and long-term health are at stake.

The thing about this thread and every other thread on the subject is that those advocating school closures say they have the science on their side, and those saying schools can go back are accused of ignoring science.

I said it up thread and I'll say it again.
In countries where schools have gone back, and where transmission in school has been analysed, they have found that transmission in schools is low, and cases are usually linked to adults transmitting to children, or children getting infected outside school.
Schools are not massive tranmission hubs, and they are not centres of tranmission.
That actually means that our kids are not going to get it from being in school.
It also means that teachers who are worried are not likely to catch it from the kids they teach. They are more likely to catch it in the staffroom.

That is not me as a parent ignoring the facts etc, that is what has been seen in the classroom.

Those who are all for 1 day per week in school, and the rest distance learning, I just refer you back to what I said before.
Are you, as a working parent, happy to leave your 11,12, 13, 14, 15, 16 yera olds alone at home for 4 days a week, trusting them not only to be sensible etc, but also to get up and get on with their work?
I'm not. Teenagers unsupervised for days and days is not healthy, or wise.
How does my dd in year 11, get enough lessons in that one day to cover her 10 GCSE subjects?

and then there are the teachers.
Work all day in front of class, smaller maybe, but still full time teaching. Then, in their free time (!) create and deliver a full set on onlilne lessons for the kids at home!
Don't be surprised to see mass reisgnations

Thank you @TaxTheRatFarms

I really appreciate the feedback. I’m so glad people find it helpful. And I do think coming into winter it will be invaluable. Of course I am biased as it’s my “other child”.

If anyone would like to sign up it’s www.covidmessenger.com.

I had a lot of mums from mumsnet sign up last week which was amazing and it would be great to see more join too!!

In countries where schools have gone back, and where transmission in school has been analysed, they have found that transmission in schools is low, and cases are usually linked to adults transmitting to children, or children getting infected outside school.

You will only get the same results if you replicate the conditions (also, there is reason to believe the results in some countries are being cherrypicked under strong government pressure - what a surprise). But even if the results are perfectly accurate, we won't be replicating the conditions.

Why can't you understand that?

There also isn't the strong evidence you would imagine (from the media buzz) that children don't spread covid as adults do. The data hasn't actually yet been provided.

The problem is that there is the bias that the first symptomatic person is the index case. Children are largely asymptomatic. They could be happily spreading it before it goes to someone who becomes symptomatic (probably an adult). But it's too late to test the kids as they've recovered and any test will show negative.....

I said it up thread and I'll say it again.
In countries where schools have gone back, and where transmission in school has been analysed, they have found that transmission in schools is low, and cases are usually linked to adults transmitting to children, or children getting infected outside school.
Schools are not massive tranmission hubs, and they are not centres of tranmission.
That actually means that our kids are not going to get it from being in school.
It also means that teachers who are worried are not likely to catch it from the kids they teach. They are more likely to catch it in the staffroom.

That is not me as a parent ignoring the facts etc, that is what has been seen in the classroom.

www.brookings.edu/blog/education-plus-development/2020/07/06/reopening-the-world-reopening-schools-insights-from-denmark-and-finland/
WHAT HEALTH AND SAFETY MEASURES NEED TO TAKE PLACE IN SCHOOLS?

Once the decision on which schools to reopen first is made, a clear plan must first and foremost prioritize the health and safety of students, educators, and families. In both countries, a number of public health measures were put in place. Among these, schools prohibited the usual morning meetings held in classes at the beginning of the school day, forbade food sharing, and introduced new preventative practices like staggered student arrivals and much more frequent cleaning and handwashing practices throughout the day. In Denmark, where average class sizes were around 20 students prior to COVID-19, classes were divided into two to three smaller groups and, whenever possible, held outside. It is worth briefly noting that the Copenhagen Teacher Association raised significant concerns over dividing the classroom into smaller groups, as it increased teachers’ work hours and created staffing shortages.

More specifically, Denmark introduced new health and safety measures for schools, including: (1) In the classroom, students must be seated at tables that are at least two meters (6.5 feet) apart; (2) students must handwash every two hours; and (3) all educational materials and equipment must be cleaned twice a day. In some schools, additional toilets and sinks were installed. To minimize risk of contagion, many schools reduced their number of hours or remained closed some days. Parents now drop off students at staggered times, sometimes using different school entrances, and are not allowed inside school buildings. In addition, any child or parent who presents even minor symptoms must not attend school. Importantly, children, parents, and teachers at increased risk due to existing health conditions are asked not to attend school.

^Given schools’ reduced capacity to serve students due to these health and safety measures, the government of Denmark asked families to keep their children at home when at least one parent does not work. In addition, other community resources are being tapped:
Community parks are now reserved for young children between the school hours (8 a.m. to 3:30 p.m.), and other buildings are made available to schools, including hotels, banks, conference centers, museums, and libraries.^

The devil is in the details, isn't it, @steppemum

The devil is in the details
In the classroom, students must be seated at tables that are at least two meters (6.5 feet) apart

"How schools in Denmark adapted to classroom teaching during the Covid-19 pandemic."

"Social distancing rules have gradually been relaxed, and when secondary schools returned in the second phase of reopening in the middle of May, pupils were allowed back in their original classrooms and at desks placed one metre apart, instead of two."

"Dom Maher, Head of St Josef’s International School, Roskilde, Denmark:"

"Getting the children back to school was very important. School is about much more than just the curriculum. Being with others at school is very important for a child’s social and emotional well being and development."

"Getting them back has not been overly difficult, I think it was more challenging setting up and monitoring remote learning."

"When the primary pupils returned, they happily followed rules because they were glad to be back at school."

"It has been much harder with lower secondary pupils.Teenagers tend to think they’re invincible, so they don’t care about social distancing, especially as the required distance is only one metre, which isn’t very much. So they’re behaving like nothing has changed."

"Sophie Jørgensen, aged 12"
"It feels incredible to be back. I don’t miss remote learning as it was difficult to understand what was going on, and we had problems with internet connections and attendances." ...

"I’m satisfied that I was able to keep up but I wouldn’t want to keep any element of remote learning. I didn’t really enjoy it and I felt less engaged."

blog.cambridgeinternational.org/how-schools-in-denmark-adapted-to-classroom-teaching-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/

Dr James Hildreth, CEO of an American hospital and public health adviser to the mayor of Nashville, has a clear message about the opening of schools.

How much detail do you want from this doctor?

"Dr. Hildreth says the study shows that social distancing may not be enough to keep you safe from the virus. "Social distancing inside, without wearing a mask, is a false sense of security,"

In that case, he is recommending that teachers and other members of staff keep their masks on even when the pupils are not around: in the staff room, the school office, staff meetings, all staff interactions held indoors...

How much mask wearing are teachers prepared to put up with during the school day? So far, the only direct evidence appears to be staff to staff transmission or teacher to pupil.

@littleowl1 Thank you so much for the messenger service. I've found it really helpful. I got my update today, saw a jump in cases in my usually low prevalence area & wondered how can that be right? It was right, because the next email was from my council saying we may have to go into local lockdown if cases continue to rise!!

You guys have just been amazingly, amazingly helpful. That is fantastic real-time testing. The feedback has helped immensely. Thank you.

And while I am so pleased www.covidmessenger.com is proving a great resource for people, I’m also sad to hear cases are rising in your area. As much as I’m incredibly proud of the service and I am so glad to be helping so many people with it, it can be a little sad to be so close to the numbers everyday. Just so many cases and so many councils being impacted. The number of councils with no/low cases keeps shrinking and the number of councils with large numbers of cases keeps rising. It’s a real worry. It’s hard to see how things will improve coming into winter. I hope I’m wrong - I truly hope test and trace is ready. The testing capacity is there - it’s just not so clear whether tracing is robust yet. I guess we will find out in due course.

@littleowl1
Thank you, I'm also finding your emails helpful. You are offering a fantastic service.

I've also signed up for your service @littleowl1 so thank you so much. As a Mum very much concerned and undecided about school return, I think this will help me in making the right decisions for my family.

I don't know how to tweet, but those that can, are you able to tweet downing Street etc with this and underneath... '' airborne. Provide ppe for students and staff ''

Clavinova, with students I'd like to be able to wear a visor at least, sometimes mask and visor.
In the staff room, perhaps visor... And sometimes a mask too.

I may even eat my lunch in my car.

Everyone is in masks everywhere else, going to school without a mask is odd. For them.

Tiny primary children may struggle with a mask. I'm sure visors to to catch sneezes would be fine.

For older dc a mix between visors and masks would be fine. As pp said they manage perfectly fine around bunsen burners and safety goggles.

Maybe a few secondary dc would fiddle with them etc but mostly, catching sneezes and cough, where most aerosols are sprayed they would be fabulous.
Nothing is perfect and there is no magic solution but surely... Masks and visors are something!

I'd love to be able to wear a mask in the staffroom. Also the classroom. Unfortunately us staff are not allowed masks, and anyway the staffroom was closed except for checking pigeon holes - all facilities and seating was removed and will not be reinstated.
So no worries there....

How much mask wearing is enough?

www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2020-08-18/colleges-grapple-with-coronavirus-as-students-return

It's more than 1% anyway...

The experience of US universities less than one week into the semester should be very sobering.

How much mask wearing are teachers prepared to put up with during the school day?
This is a mind-blowingly preposterous question.