US Doctor On Opening Schools

[mac12]

Dr James Hildreth, CEO of an American hospital and public health adviser to the mayor of Nashville, has a clear message about the opening of schools.

6 minute video well worth everyone's time.

Thanks for sharing this clip. I have been trying to squash down my anxieties about DD going back to school but now I wonder if I shouldn't be squashing them but paying attention to them. I am lucky that I have the option to deregister and home school her but I really, really don't want to do this. I know school can do a much better job of educating her than me. I don't want to do it alone but I also don't want to send her back in to school if it's not safe. I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I don't understand how masks will help or work at schools. Surely the air and droplets still have to come out somewhere and will be in the atmosphere. I get how they help for a short burst in a shop but so many people don't wear them properly, I can't see children being much better than adults at wearing them properly.

Also, I had to wear a mask for 2 hours for a hospital appt the other day and it was so uncomfortable. Expecting children to wear them for 6 hours, that'll be awful. If they are taking them on and off for eating, break times etc then how many masks per day do they need to take in? Who will ensure they are taking them off and putting them on properly. If it's not done properly then what is the point.

@pontypridd

I will caveat this with saying that this is in no way me saying that it is something we need to be very wary of at all and with a lack of immunity the small percentages still make up for a large number of people - 1% of a million for example is 10000.

But no the current chances I think given the amount of people who have it are 1 in around 1000. To get to 50/50 or 1/2 you would need very close contact with someone who had it and then would need to be one of those who got ill and got it badly.

Different areas of course would have different odds.

And the US/UK position at the moment is very different.

We need to move forward slowly and carefully with this in the UK at the moment.

The US needs to be looked at state by state but some states should not be opening schools at all

@MJMG2015 - I wonder if your DC and mine to go the same school. It reads, word for word, my experience.

*like my experience

Thanks @MJMG2015. It seems that all independents are doing their own thing. My DM was telling me that one well-known boarding school is asking all pupils to go in and get tested 10 days before the start of term, then isolate until term starts and then everyone back (as long as they tested negative). The issue with a possible case at a boarding school is, of course, more potentially serious than a day school - particularly with international students flying in from other parts of the world.

I guess I'll find out what we're supposed to be doing next week. I've heard nothing from either of my DC's day schools yet.

[quote BertiesLanding]@MJMG2015 - I wonder if your DC and mine to go the same school. It reads, word for word, my experience.[/quote]
Just sent you a PM

@zafferana

Thanks *@MJMG2015*. It seems that all independents are doing their own thing. My DM was telling me that one well-known boarding school is asking all pupils to go in and get tested 10 days before the start of term, then isolate until term starts and then everyone back (as long as they tested negative). The issue with a possible case at a boarding school is, of course, more potentially serious than a day school - particularly with international students flying in from other parts of the world.

I guess I'll find out what we're supposed to be doing next week. I've heard nothing from either of my DC's day schools yet.

I wish they were doing that & I disagree with their reasoning for not. But maybe a lot of the 'guardians' didn't want to have to have them isolating at theirs?!

School has left some areas for anyone they need to quarantine, but only a few and with thousands of students, I can see this being an issue.

Not looking forward to September & the risk this brings home every night 🤬

@Alittleodd

I just feel like this winter is going to be an utterly heartbreaking "we told you so" for a lot of us.

I really wish it didn't have to be but honestly, having seen the attitudes of so many posters in this last week or so, I don't think it can be avoided.

Which really fucking sucks.

Wait till you see the effect of no deal/WTO Brexit.

@InDeoEstMeaFiducia yes, we can add that to the list of awful things that I very much wanted to avoid having to live through too I suppose.

Is there anything, anywhere, explaining why the decision has been made for masks not to be worn in schools?

I simply can't understand it. I work in the NHS and I have to wear a mask to sit in my 3 person, well ventilated office, with us all 2m apart.

How on earth can they say that it's ok for 30 (+) children and a teacher to be in a tiny, poorly ventilated classroom, far less than 2m apart, and nobody wears a mask.

If you have to wear a mask to nip into a cafe for less than a minute to buy a coffee, why the fuck aren't they wearing masks in schools?

@WildSkitty

Is there anything, anywhere, explaining why the decision has been made for masks not to be worn in schools?

I simply can't understand it. I work in the NHS and I have to wear a mask to sit in my 3 person, well ventilated office, with us all 2m apart.

How on earth can they say that it's ok for 30 (+) children and a teacher to be in a tiny, poorly ventilated classroom, far less than 2m apart, and nobody wears a mask.

If you have to wear a mask to nip into a cafe for less than a minute to buy a coffee, why the fuck aren't they wearing masks in schools?

I don't know. Reasons I've heard quotes are things like they will scare the kids, kids will lose them/not wear them properly, it will deprive staff/students of oxygen (yes, really), it will affect teaching/learning, teachers are cowards/snowflakes and masks are unnecessary as the virus absolutely cannot be transmitted in schools... No valid reasons which trump the fact that masks may help us avoid contracting a deadly virus. For some unknown reason, many, many people seem dead set against allowing students and staff to wear them.

@WildSkitty

Is there anything, anywhere, explaining why the decision has been made for masks not to be worn in schools?

I simply can't understand it. I work in the NHS and I have to wear a mask to sit in my 3 person, well ventilated office, with us all 2m apart.

How on earth can they say that it's ok for 30 (+) children and a teacher to be in a tiny, poorly ventilated classroom, far less than 2m apart, and nobody wears a mask.

If you have to wear a mask to nip into a cafe for less than a minute to buy a coffee, why the fuck aren't they wearing masks in schools?

I can just see it now! Masks on kids in schools. 'I lost my mask', or pulling grotty masks from the bottoms of school bags or pockets of trousers that have been worn several times, playing 'rona tag pulling their masks over the faces of other kids, dropping them on the floor and then picking them up and putting them on, taking them off to sneeze (or sneezing into them) and then putting them back on without having wiped their mouths, taking them on and off all day . . .

This is just a snapshot of why masks in schools, for the pupils at least, is probably not going to work. It's not adults going to a cafe. Children just don't behave like adults for some reason (life would be much easier if they did).

file:///C:/Users/0037547/Downloads/WHO-2019-nCov-IPC_Masks-2020.4-eng.pdf

Here is the WHO on masks.

Schools are a tricky one I think - if worn properly and changed frequently I think they would definitely work.

Personally I think they should be in corridors and moving around in communal areas. I think in a classroom spread out desks is better. Staff should be allowed to wear masks and visors as and when they are appropriate

Masks are not a panacea and we shouldnt view them as such

[quote Alittleodd]@InDeoEstMeaFiducia yes, we can add that to the list of awful things that I very much wanted to avoid having to live through too I suppose.[/quote]
Oh, believe me, the impact of this will be incredible, especially because people really don't seem to even see or care about it, particularly the government.

@Quartz2208

file:///C:/Users/0037547/Downloads/WHO-2019-nCov-IPC_Masks-2020.4-eng.pdf

Here is the WHO on masks.

Schools are a tricky one I think - if worn properly and changed frequently I think they would definitely work.

Personally I think they should be in corridors and moving around in communal areas. I think in a classroom spread out desks is better. Staff should be allowed to wear masks and visors as and when they are appropriate

Masks are not a panacea and we shouldnt view them as such

Which would mean the wearer is taking it on and off multiple times a day, which decreases efficacy. You're definitely right, they are no panacea or force field.

My belief re: the no masks in school under any circumstances thing is that there is a certain degree of magical thinking at work. Yes there are lots of very determined people who have very definite reasons why it is an awful idea and can't be considered and they will tell you all of them, from every angle and it doesn't matter that all the reasons are coming from disparate approaches and have spurious evidence behind them because they feel very real to the people giving them.

But I think it boils down to a degree of (often completely unacknowledged) fear.

Sending a child to school in a mask means acknowledging that there is some sort of risk involved (because you have taken some form of mitigating action, hence there must be a risk to mitigate) this means that the child has a chance of coming to harm and that is something that so many of us can't cope with. The thought of knowingly putting our child in harm's way is awful, to all of us.

So if we refuse to even consider a mask we resist the idea that harm can come to our child, there is no need for mitigation because there is no risk. No danger. Everything is fine. Just as it has always been. There's no need to grapple with the difficult decision of whether their education or their health is more important, there's no need to think about impact on the wider world, because there isn't a problem to start off with.

Those who admit the risk and take steps to reduce potential harm are poking at that very fragile bubble of denial and are lashed out against, because they are threatening a very deeply held coping strategy.

That's what I believe anyway. And if people are allowed to believe whatever they want about the nature of viral transmission despite having no actual in-depth knowledge of the topic then I am allowed to believe whatever I want about their motivations.

Kids could come in wearing them then keep them on u til lunch when they eat then change to a clean fresh one with teacher supervision. Masks are by no means ideal but seem like the least bad option if we want to keep schools open and have 30 odd people together I the same room.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Alittleodd and very articulately.

It may also have to do with peoples' experience of teaching or being responsible for large groups of children at once, Alittle.

They don't behave like adults, even teens. Oh, god, lost ties, ties at the bottoms of grotty bags, ties in grotty pockets, lost everything, forgetting things, etc. And that's older children.

@GingerandTilly

Kids could come in wearing them then keep them on u til lunch when they eat then change to a clean fresh one with teacher supervision. Masks are by no means ideal but seem like the least bad option if we want to keep schools open and have 30 odd people together I the same room.

Except they won't. They'll fiddle with them, touch them constantly, shift them around, poke their tongues out in them. And the parents, provide two clean masks a day. Yeah, that's going to work.

The schools have already gone back in Scotland. No masks. We shall see, but this is a moot point already there.

Well we seem to have a choice between high infection rates, masks or school closures. Most people don’t seem to want schools to close, most don’t want their kids or family to get the virus so yes as a parent I’d happily provide my kids with masks to wear and would rather have the option of doing so. Even my six year old can wear his mask without the fiddling that you describe. Yes there will be some that can’t but to rule it out for everyone on this basis seems extreme.

I have a vulnerable child who was on the vulnerable list until they scrapped it. She has a complicated neurological condition and I’m very very nervous now of sending her back in.

Non vulnerable child - I’m rightly/wrongly willing to take the risk.

@InDeoEstMeaFiducia yes, I did observe that fact in the years I spent as a classroom teacher and middle leader working within comprehensive schools in England. I also observed that the vast majority of teenagers can be civic minded, we saw that on the day of the Brexit result being announced actually.

I'm aware they can be gross, forgetful, unthinking. I'm also aware that they are resilient, compassionate and when something is important they can be incredibly responsible.

Now maybe I'm biased but after spending over a decade teaching kids how to use dangerous chemicals and open flames. Making sure they can use aseptic technique (part of the GCSE biology core practical requirement) and that they understand the correct way to wear safety equipment I do actually believe that secondary school children can learn to use masks effectively and safely.

In fact I'm now remembering the forensic science days I used to run for year 6 students, they spent entire days in full forensics gear, including masks. They learned how to keep a clean workspace, avoid cross contamination of samples (checked with UV dye and a blacklight). They could probably handle it too.

Alittleodd - I think you’re right.

Also wearing masks will make going back to school awkward and odd and sort of negate the point of it all. Less learning. Less social interaction. Masks will hinder those things won’t they.

I’d give school with masks a try but do feel it would be enabling childcare and not much else.

Scotland's already gone back in. No masks. I forget how England-centric MN is.