School return will fail

[covidteacherscotland]

Okay so we have been back to school for a week! Great? No. Definitely not. Some thoughts on why this will be a disaster:

16 and 17 year olds are not children.

Social distancing is impossible. Genuinely impossible. Children will not or cannot stay out your space.

There is no PPE in school at all and staff are not protected in any way.

Children don't give a shit about washing their hands.

We've been doing double periods instead of single to minimise movement. This means that we are stuck in a room with 30 17 year olds with few or no windows as the respiratory droplets add up.

Educating your child is impossible if you can't go near them.

Our time management and pupil progress relies on us being able to give feedback to children formatively as we teach. To mark jotters as we go. We can't do this now.

I think that because infection is so low we'll be okay for a while - a few weeks - then the shit will hit the fan.

Hang on so what measures can be put in place to stop the disruption of learning that closures might bring?

Because if the answer is part time school that's going to be pretty disruptive to learning too isn't it?

@blubellsarebells

You are right: there are absolutely measures that could be put in place in order to make the environment safer and ensure that the children have a more secure access to education in the longer term.

I suppose the point is nothing is ever 100% safe and its as safe as it can be with the aims the government are going for which is all children in school full time

The solution doesn't need to be a part time, blended model. This can work and we did it very successfully for all year groups for the last month of the last academic year but it doesn't have to be that.

There are ways in which the full time model could be made safer and more viable in the long-term, such as funding better cleaning and the guarentee of cleaning products and sanitiser. Unfortunately, the Government isn't willing to fund this. Another option would be the use of visors or face coverings with see-through windows. Again, unfortunately, the Government is concerned that this will lead parents into thinking that their child's environment isn't safe and so be unwilling to send them. They can't have that: it's essential that the 'schools are totally safe' message isn't undermined as that will result in some people not going back to work or going back to spending to support the economy.

@TrustTheGeneGenie

Hang on so what measures can be put in place to stop the disruption of learning that closures might bring?

Because if the answer is part time school that's going to be pretty disruptive to learning too isn't it?

The measures depend on where you are coming from.

If you want to decrease the likelihood of closures, greater measures need to exist in the classroom and, as the scientific advisors have stated, in the community itself.

If you want to decrease the disruption but not the likelihood then there needs to be support and funding put in place to ensure that all students can access online learning platforms. This includes investment in technology (that was said was coming but didn't) and in training for staff and online tutorials for parents to help them access a digital platform such as Google Classroom.

If you want to decrease the likelihood of closures, greater measures need to exist in the classroom and, as the scientific advisors have stated, in the community itself

Yes but what measures?

If you want to decrease the disruption but not the likelihood then there needs to be support and funding put in place to ensure that all students can access online learning platforms. This includes investment in technology (that was said was coming but didn't) and in training for staff and online tutorials for parents to help them access a digital platform such as Google Classroom.

Maybe ok for secondary but not primary...

Primary needs a parent at home and not everyone has that.

online tutorials for parents to help them access a digital platform such as Google Classroom

But the parents are at work / back at work? So who’s going to help the primary kids navigate all this IT? Or do parents have to galvanise their 7 year olds to do some oak academy at 7pm before bedtime?

@Lemons1571

That comment was in relation to what would stop disruption after a school had already closed. If that was the case, there would already have to be someone at home with the child(ren). The earlier comments were about reducing the likelihood of closure, in which case the digital platform isn't needed.

@TrustTheGeneGenie

School-based measures would be secure funding for enhanced cleaning, the use of visors or windowed face coverings or screens to help reduce transmission, the tightening of restrictions on the attendance of unwell children, etc.

Community-based measures would be things like better distancing for families and their children, possible restrictions on how open our society is (as stated by the scientific advisors) and making it easier for parents to take leave to care for an unwell child or one who is having to isolate due to a positive result from someone else in the classroom (this would include Government support for the businesses that this affected).

The online platform would only be needed in the even of school closures. In that case, an adult would already be at home with the primary-aged child, although this may not be their parent.

The point is that there are possible solutions that could be found if there was calm and open discussion about it. Unfortunately, that isn't happening at the moment. Instead, there are almost battle-cries of "Schools are SAFE," or "We demand NORMAL," which just serve to inflame the argument and make solutions even less likely.

@Iamnotthe1

The point is that there are possible solutions that could be found if there was calm and open discussion about it. Unfortunately, that isn't happening at the moment. Instead, there are almost battle-cries of "Schools are SAFE," or "We demand NORMAL," which just serve to inflame the argument and make solutions even less likely.

I agree. Things like cleaning are an obvious thing but I guess the problem is money?

Schools are not and will never be totally safe. But then nor are teachers going to drop dead immediately upon entering the building.

There are many people at both extremes.

I think if teachers want ppe they should have it but children having to wear masks doesn't sit comfortably with me at all.

Community-based measures would be things like better distancing for families and their children, possible restrictions on how open our society is

Teachers are recommending lockdowns then? It is these suggestions that make parents throw their hands up and say just get back to teaching in the classroom as normally as possible.
Why are teachers a special case?
A family member is a nurse. They bought their own masks at the beginning, their own hand sanitiser and the admin staff in the building became cleaners.
The world has changed. There aren’t any jobs that have remain unchanged. Everyone has had to adapt. Sadly this thread just highlights that many teachers have had months of doing the bare minimum and now want parent’s support. People won’t support them because of this. They effectively shot themselves in the foot.

@Alongcameacat you've said everything I feel there. From some of the things I've read that sums it up, many other sectors have had to make adjustments and I know schools have and will but there seems to be from some a complete lack of willingness from some to do that.

@TrustTheGeneGenie

Funding is an issue, yes. The Government has said that it will provide funding for schools so the general public think that schools are getting it. In reality, a school will only get a small amount of funding after an outbreak has happened. By then, it's far too late. Some schools are struggling to pay for soap, sanitiser and paper towels let alone things like distance markers on the playground for parents dropping off or for the children in different bubbles during fire drills / real alarms.

I don't particularly like the idea either but would do it because of the overwhelming evidence that it would make it more likely that schools can remain open in the long-term. My school did well with remote learning but I'd much rather have the children in with us. What is it specifically that makes you uncomfortable with the idea of masks or visors for children?

@Alongcameacat
Teachers are recommending lockdowns then? It is these suggestions that make parents throw their hands up and say just get back to teaching in the classroom as normally as possible.

Not at all. The scientific advisors are recommending that we close certain aspects of society in order to reopen schools. My personal suggestion was that families make sure they are following the already existing regulations and that they support their children, teenagers especially, in doing the same. Many are but there are a significant number who aren't.

@wizzbangfizz
many other sectors have had to make adjustments and I know schools have and will but there seems to be from some a complete lack of willingness from some to do that.

I've found quite the opposite. Teachers/schools are asking for adjustments to be made and are being told no because that moves what schools look like further away from 'normal'.

@Alongcameacat

Community-based measures would be things like better distancing for families and their children, possible restrictions on how open our society is

Teachers are recommending lockdowns then? It is these suggestions that make parents throw their hands up and say just get back to teaching in the classroom as normally as possible.
Why are teachers a special case?
A family member is a nurse. They bought their own masks at the beginning, their own hand sanitiser and the admin staff in the building became cleaners.
The world has changed. There aren’t any jobs that have remain unchanged. Everyone has had to adapt. Sadly this thread just highlights that many teachers have had months of doing the bare minimum and now want parent’s support. People won’t support them because of this. They effectively shot themselves in the foot.

Not one teacher has recommended a lockdown. Lies add nothing to the debate.

But anything to have a go at teachers, eh? Even if you have to make things up.

How many times do teachers need to say that they want schools to open before it sinks in? But they want them to open safely for children and adults. I'm not sure what's wrong with that.

Extra cleaning, masks for staff and over 11s, online provision ready for when there are shut downs. Don't people want schools to be as safe as possible for everyone? If not then why not.

The cleaning thing is horrendous really. It surely is better to throw money at cleaning than not and having closures isn't it!

What is it specifically that makes you uncomfortable with the idea of masks or visors for children?

For younger children I don't think realistically they can be expected to wear them properly and not touch their faces etc. Ill be honest I think masks on young children are pretty awful anyway. I think small children need to be able to express themselves easily and masks hinder that.

For secondary, well I've met teenagers and again I don't think a lot of them (not all) will wear them correctly etc and a lot will piss around with them, or because of them iyswim. Perhaps visors for secondary? But then are they effective on their own? I don't know.

[quote RocketFueler]@askmehowiknow why are parents not doing more to advocate for their kids? Why is it being left for teachers, who have no influence or respect, to fight it alone?

And me being able to home educate my child wasn't the point. I was clearly saying that my child got something that most children didn't get because i was in the position to provide that. [/quote]
Do you really not get it? I'm perfectly able to advocate for my kids. I'm able to educate them to A level in any subject if necessary. It's not hard

It's the kids who don't have these parents we need to be advocating for.

How can you not realise that?

@Alongcameacat @whizzbangfizz

As a teacher, I have also bought my own masks and hand sanitiser for use at work (also cleaning materials as we were provided with none for cleaning the classroom during the day), and cleaned the building. Support staff cleaned toilets. It's a bit shit to be told that you think we've been doing the bare minimum.

It is not possible for this to continue, as in two weeks' time, I will be expected to do my job as normal. So I do think it's important for parents to know that schools will be the least Covid secure place that their child is likely to go to. Even a soft play centre wouldn't be allowed that number of people in that small a space. Sure, there are probably other places that would (eg. factories), but I do think a lot of people seem to have unreasonable expectations of what schools can actually do.

It would be pretty petty not to support your child's teacher just because some teachers on MN have annoyed you, but tbf, I don't think you would really do that.

But there are adjustments being made? My child's class is being taught in the hall next year and lots of other adjustments are happening (no after school provisions etc) and I will adhere to them all. But I think it will never be safe enough (certainly not for some) and talk of one week on one in is just not going to cut it. We can't continue to paralyse our economy and the schools going back is key to that.

@TrustTheGeneGenie
*For younger children I don't think realistically they can be expected to wear them properly and not touch their faces etc. Ill be honest I think masks on young children are pretty awful anyway. I think small children need to be able to express themselves easily and masks hinder that.

For secondary, well I've met teenagers and again I don't think a lot of them (not all) will wear them correctly etc and a lot will piss around with them, or because of them iyswim. Perhaps visors for secondary? But then are they effective on their own? I don't know*

They are better than nothing although not as effective as they could be.

There is a cultural element of this, I feel, and because things like this aren't considered normal in British culture, there's an assumption that children will find it difficult. My experience with children makes me believe that the vast majority would be fine, even at the upper primary level.

You are right that a few would choose to mess around but those are the same teenagers who, before lockdown, were doing the "corona-coughing" and going up to other pupils and staff and deliberately coughing in their faces. So, again, anything is better than nothing.

@askmehowiknow that was my original point! That I was able to do that for my child and her school provided great online learning but that most children didn't get that! I get the point. You just don't like what I said because I think parents need to do more to help rather than wait for teachers to do all the hard work. Teachers and parents need to stand together and say "this is not good enough" and demand better. And support each other and acknowledge that both parents and teachers are in a difficult position.

@askmehowiknow or alternatively we could open the schools as unsafely as possible as per your earlier post and then watch as bubbles/classes/schools close down which won't be disruptive at all to children and parents.

@solidaritea I do not think that across the board teachers have been doing the bare minimum but my and a lot of my friends experiences leave a lot to be desired on the home schooling front. I'm doing all
I can to support my school both at home and at school when they (hopefully) return and will continue to do so.

The title of this thread i think doesn't help. WILL FAIL is defeatist language and doesn't help and promotes the narrative that certain elements of the sector want this to fail. We have been continually warned of second waves which haven't panned out following mass gatherings and maybe just maybe parents should be allowed to hope for the best and not the worst.

@TrustTheGeneGenie

With you on cleaning. It's dire in all schools I've worked in. Outsourced, cleaned once a day, with toilets regularly out of paper and soap by lunchtime.

For primary, top of my wish-list would be for schools to get enough money to pay for a full-time cleaner to keep things up to a high standard at all times. So simple and relatively cheap, and could make a difference to attendance (obviously it seems Covid is not spread much by touch, but it might help, and may also reduce spread of other diseases).

@wizzbangfizz
But there are adjustments being made?

Very few in the majority of settings. For example, in your school if you child's class is being taught in the hall to improve distance, that means that all the rest of the classes are in their rooms as normal. Most schools wouldn't be able to use their hall as a classroom due to needing for lunches for between 11:20am and 1:30pm each day.

Based on the current guidance, most schools look end up looking pretty much the same as they did before lockdown, just with tables all facing forward and breaktimes and lunchtimes being supervised by that class's teacher rather than other staff.

[quote wizzbangfizz]@Alongcameacat you've said everything I feel there. From some of the things I've read that sums it up, many other sectors have had to make adjustments and I know schools have and will but there seems to be from some a complete lack of willingness from some to do that. [/quote]
I haven’t seen that at all, but I’m biased because, as a teacher, I can see all the changes going on in schools. And actually as a parent, from all the info dc’s schools send out.

What you’re perceiving as a lack of willingness is most likely teachers knowing that a certain idea won’t work. Like:

• ask the kids to socially distance

Won’t work in secondary as all classes (in my and older dc’s school) are oversubscribed, and there are no extra classrooms or teachers to spread out the classes. And the government aren’t giving any funding to improve/expand buildings.

Is that a lack of willingness, or a knowledge of the reality of teaching?

Then rinse and repeat for other ideas that some think teachers have “rejected” because of their “lack of a can-do” attitude.

[quote Iamnotthe1]@TrustTheGeneGenie
*For younger children I don't think realistically they can be expected to wear them properly and not touch their faces etc. Ill be honest I think masks on young children are pretty awful anyway. I think small children need to be able to express themselves easily and masks hinder that.

For secondary, well I've met teenagers and again I don't think a lot of them (not all) will wear them correctly etc and a lot will piss around with them, or because of them iyswim. Perhaps visors for secondary? But then are they effective on their own? I don't know*

They are better than nothing although not as effective as they could be.

There is a cultural element of this, I feel, and because things like this aren't considered normal in British culture, there's an assumption that children will find it difficult. My experience with children makes me believe that the vast majority would be fine, even at the upper primary level.

You are right that a few would choose to mess around but those are the same teenagers who, before lockdown, were doing the "corona-coughing" and going up to other pupils and staff and deliberately coughing in their faces. So, again, anything is better than nothing.[/quote]
Well yes of course there's a cultural element but I don't believe because other countries mask their children that its ok. They may not find it difficult but children who have never had to wear them likely will.

Is there not a cross contamination issue though? They touch their masks or mess about and then touch everything else? Where with no mask they're not as likely to touch their faces etc?