Sweden An International Scandal

[ClimbDad]

At the same time as telling the Swedish public there was no risk of transmission through schools, chief epidemiologist Tegnell was sending private emails saying schools should be kept open to increase the rate of transmission and accelerate his objective of herd immunity. This man knowingly and deliberately used children to spread disease.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/13/swedens-chief-epidemiologist-wanted-keep-schools-open-spread/

And contrary to what some on here think, Swedish teachers were more affected by the virus than other professions. The government just stopped publishing the data and made it an official state secret.

In fact, Sweden went out of its way not to study the spread of the virus through schools.

www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/how-sweden-wasted-rare-opportunity-study-coronavirus-schools

Anyone who points to Sweden as a model needs to think long and hard about what they’re supporting: a regime that knowingly used children to spread a potentially lethal disease.

There is nowhere for you to hide. Sweden’s chief epidemiologist says schools increase transmission. Open schools without masks and with normal class sizes and we will see the same thing in the UK.

@MoreW1ne judge me as much as you like but you're judging me based on something I haven't actually done so what that tells you I don't know.

This poster continuously posts alarmist threads. They are looking to either scare people or find people to wallow in misery with. If you think thats good for a person's mental health then fine, but I don't.

Isn’t the point that Sweden’s data can’t be trusted? That they didn’t test & trace so actually don’t know about spread through schools? And that they have had a policy of obfuscating & hiding data in secret unpublished documents? twitter.com/davidsteadson/status/1293161668084719617?s=21

All this is moot though, in a couple of months we will have conducted our own real time experiment into whether opening schools with no mitigation measures plays any role in community transmission. Yay for us.

@mac12

Isn’t the point that Sweden’s data can’t be trusted? That they didn’t test & trace so actually don’t know about spread through schools? And that they have had a policy of obfuscating & hiding data in secret unpublished documents? twitter.com/davidsteadson/status/1293161668084719617?s=21

All this is moot though, in a couple of months we will have conducted our own real time experiment into whether opening schools with no mitigation measures plays any role in community transmission. Yay for us.

As opposed to our incredibly reliable data, the counting of which I believe they have changed twice now.

Oh yes I think it’s pretty clear we are following Sweden in more ways than one. Again yay for us.

Oh God, just when I thought @ClimbDad had shuffled off to reddit. No he strikes again with another attempt to depress us all. This person, a teacher no doubt, is obsessed.

And we are all still waiting for your miracle covid treatment to be published.....STILL WAITING.

I'm on board with wallowing in misery tbh, our schools plans are abysmal, our death toll terrible and our government a shambles!

But all countries, sooner or later, are adopting Sweden's measures. Or do you want schools to remain closed until a vaccine is found?

He wont answer. He starts threads with a report/paper prophesizing the end of the world as we know it, then fails to answer any questions.

I think he is the same bloke who stood outside the Commons shouting "Stop Brexit". His threads are that effective.

Nobody wants schools closed until there’s a vaccine, why do people keep saying that
I would like to see our schools policy ‘follow the science’ so we can keep our schools open this winter & reduce community transmission. It’s not an extremist or hysterical position but one I think many people can rally around to do the best for our children, our families, our communities and our frontline medics who will bear the brunt if we get this wrong.

"Makes sense. Teachers are annoying at the best of times"

Hey I am a teacher lol. I don't agree with posts like this though, when even the articles you post don't support your "theory"

@TrustTheGeneGenie

If that's at me about attacking personally, it's not an attack it's friendly advice.

This. Is. Not. Good. For. You.

Now you’ve used emphatic full stops I see you’re right.

You and people like you are trying to shut down anyone who disagrees with your worldview. Instead of worrying about my state of mind, find some evidence that demonstrates schools don’t amplify transmission.

It is important to understand human coronaviruses behave very differently in winter than in summer. We may be seeing Covid19 at its best.

twitter.com/richardneher/status/1293857065425866754?s=21

The CDC is now advising Americans to prepare for a very bad winter. I expect the UK will start getting the same advice soon.

Ah see @ClimbDad this is the thing, I haven't actually said you're wrong, because I don't know.

I've just said this obsession isn't good for you.

Very very different things.

I'm not sure this story is as dramatic as he's making out, but @ClimbDad isn't a teacher - he works in science and posts on the good news threads too about the work he's doing

And when you all keep playing the man not the ball, I can’t help wondering why? Is it because everything you say about OP actually reflects how you feel too?

Also, the risk isn't as much to children - or teachers, for the most part - it's because we've got to operate any second wave with a performing NHS not a paused one; the figures for breast cancer urgent care referrals went down by over 40% during the pandemic. And before anyone says "use the Nightingales" - they're not staffed: staff have to come from the other hospitals, hence why they weren't heavily used.

We need to get past the narrative of "what about me, what about my kids" and think about how a society without ready medicine free at the point of use would start to look like to all of us.

It's in everyone's interest to keep numbers down and controlled in our country which is far more densely populated than Sweden and won't countenance paying a similar level of tax.

“‘I have teachers in my family’, the new ‘I have friends who are black’. Meaningless platitude.

Thanks for the article. Surely even the soporific Swedes will react now.”

Comparing a career choice to racism and the fight for universal emancipation is really offensive. And any leg you might have to stand on in making that comparison is completely undermined when you follow it up by stereotyping an entire nation.

@ClimbDad once again I knew this would be you before I even opened this thread.

Please bore off and do something more constructive with your time.

I agree that more measures are needed in schools. But using weak articles to imply sweden using children as little biological weapons to increase the spread is ridiculous. Nothing in those articles suggests that. Those emails are the conversations governments across the world would have had in march, discussing what might happen if schools stayed open.

How is Mumsnet letting some of these posts remain? I thought personal attacks were against guidelines.

TrusttheGeneGenie, with you on this - I just had a look at ClimbDad's posting history, not something I would normally do, but every single post is re Covid, and many are scaremongering, including posts about food prices going up and vaccines not working. Every single post, even on threads where there are glimmers of light, is about how everything the experts say is wrong. Even reading the articles posted, ClimbDad puts a negative spin on even positive news.

I am honestly starting to wonder about ClimbDad's motivation

@Jrobhatch29

I agree that more measures are needed in schools. But using weak articles to imply sweden using children as little biological weapons to increase the spread is ridiculous. Nothing in those articles suggests that. Those emails are the conversations governments across the world would have had in march, discussing what might happen if schools stayed open.

So how did Swedish schools operate? How many students in class, was there social distancing, did they wear masks, how big are the classrooms, what hygiene facilities are there, did they use distance learning? Basically, did schools operate with 30+ students in a class with no space around them, without masks and only one toilet block between 500 students (the situation in my local secondary school - 1000 students, 1 toilet block for boys, 1 for girls with about ten sinks in each)? Because if Sweden had better than this then they are not comparable

The thing is this virus is going nowhere and any possible vaccine is a long, long way off.

We - and every other country - is going to have to be like Sweden or we might as well give up. The country will collapse. It’s no good trumpeting about New Zealand as they are a) a very different society, size and location and b) the virus has infiltrated the country anyway and now apparently loads of people have it. It’s impossible to stamp it out, even with the toughest measures. If NZ can’t contain it, what hope is there for Europe or the U.K., with mass travel, porous borders and a non-compliant population?

We will have a dreadful second wave in the winter and I think just about everybody (except those in true hiding mode) will get it.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras
"So how did Swedish schools operate? How many students in class, was there social distancing, did they wear masks, how big are the classrooms, what hygiene facilities are there, did they use distance learning? Basically, did schools operate with 30+ students in a class with no space around them, without masks and only one toilet block between 500 students (the situation in my local secondary school - 1000 students, 1 toilet block for boys, 1 for girls with about ten sinks in each)? Because if Sweden had better than this then they are not comparable"

What on earth are you on about? Read my first sentence. "I agree more measures are needrd in schools". Your comment is irrelevant to what I said

It's the blatant lies from Tegnell that is most concerning. It's one thing to lie about politics and business but the nation's health and their lives? I'm still hopeful that further guidance will be issued before September wrt PPE in secondary schools but then again Scotland are already back.