Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

Sweden An International Scandal

125 replies

ClimbDad · 14/08/2020 01:00

At the same time as telling the Swedish public there was no risk of transmission through schools, chief epidemiologist Tegnell was sending private emails saying schools should be kept open to increase the rate of transmission and accelerate his objective of herd immunity. This man knowingly and deliberately used children to spread disease.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/13/swedens-chief-epidemiologist-wanted-keep-schools-open-spread/

And contrary to what some on here think, Swedish teachers were more affected by the virus than other professions. The government just stopped publishing the data and made it an official state secret.

In fact, Sweden went out of its way not to study the spread of the virus through schools.

www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/how-sweden-wasted-rare-opportunity-study-coronavirus-schools

Anyone who points to Sweden as a model needs to think long and hard about what they’re supporting: a regime that knowingly used children to spread a potentially lethal disease.

There is nowhere for you to hide. Sweden’s chief epidemiologist says schools increase transmission. Open schools without masks and with normal class sizes and we will see the same thing in the UK.

OP posts:
BertiesLanding · 14/08/2020 07:47

I think the argument here isn't so much about kids getting affected by coronavirus as it is about kids then transmitting it to adults both at school and at home.

Quartz2208 · 14/08/2020 07:50

Sweden didnt just keep schools open though and the emails were back in March when we didnt understand and were thinking of the same approach here.

www.thelocal.se/20200511/how-swedens-schools-have-adapted-to-the-coronavirus

It made a conscious decision not to sacrifice its under 16s (it did close down its over 16s) and keep them open throughout

The problem with this is that is completely misunderstands Sweden's approach.
www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/09/swedens-covid-expert-warns-uk-opening-and-closing-schools-would-be-disastrous

Their current restrictions are the same as they were at the start. Their approach has always been to put in place something that would last and be livable with long term until a vaccine is found.

In the shorter term it was more brutal and indeed has caused more deaths but we cannot question it as an approach until much later down the line.

Sweden are different though they have a system based on trust with the Government
www.thelocal.se/20200812/why-is-everyone-talking-about-anders-tegnells-emails

latticechaos · 14/08/2020 07:52

@Jrobhatch29

I've no need to argue with you so let's not, I think I've made my point that both the speed and tone of the replies any time this poster posts seem distinctive.

I found this in the Science article interesting:

In a review paper published 19 May in Acta Paediatrica, Ludvigsson concluded that children are “unlikely to be the main drivers” of COVID-19 spread. He cited case studies from France and Australia but wrote that, “So far there have been no reports of COVID-19 outbreaks in Swedish schools,” citing “personal communication” from Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s state epidemiologist, on 12 May. “This supports the argument that asymptomatic children attending schools are unlikely to spread the disease,” Ludvigsson wrote.

However, a scan of Swedish newspapers makes clear that school outbreaks have occurred. In the town of Skellefteå, a teacher died and 18 of 76 staff tested positive at a school with about 500 students in preschool through ninth grade. The school closed for 2 weeks because so many staff were sick, but students were not tested for the virus. In Uppsala, staff protested when school officials, citing patient privacy rules, declined to notify families or staff that a teacher had tested positive. No contact tracing was done at the school. At least two staff members at other schools have died, but those schools remained open and no one attempted to trace the spread of the disease there.

You can not find out much about the things you don't study. This approach is sometimes taken by governments - it is why poverty targets in the UK were dropped, so we no longer collect that data.

As ever, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We've made so many errors in the UK with covid so far, it'd be good to avoid more where we can.

Jrobhatch29 · 14/08/2020 07:52

My comments were about a possible effect, not an expected one, which was a part of the assessment of the suitability of the measure," he said. "Keeping schools open to achieve herd immunity was therefore never on the table."

Another email from Tegnell suggests that he did not believe children are the main spreaders of the coronavirus.

I don't think this article supports your theory that they delibrately kept schools open to accelerate the spread either. They are emails from the beginning of the pandemic about what might happen, when nobody knew.

Nobody disagrees with you. We have all expressed similar concerns on your posts before about schools. I have said to you before I am not overly pleased about my own kids going back, though I feel they need to so they are. The problem is the hysterical posts. A regime? Really? State secrets. Come on.

MoreW1ne · 14/08/2020 07:55

@TrustTheGeneGenie

Omg, in a nice way, you need help.

You're going to worry yourself in to an early grave at this rate. All this doom and gloom isn't good for a person you know?

Please stop trying to get other people on board with your obsession. It's unhealthy.

I'm more concerned about the welfare of those people who seemingly follow climbdad around waiting to jump on their posts. Perhaps they need some help.
latticechaos · 14/08/2020 07:55

Can we please stop analysing every word one poster uses, and discuss the articles?

Pretty please?

Friendsoftheearth · 14/08/2020 07:58

Is climbdad a teacher enjoying the indefinite school holidays for the past six months and wishing to continue to Christmas and beyond do we think?

Chloemol · 14/08/2020 07:58

Can I ask a question here? I get that Sweden did it different to the rest if the world

But schools opened in continental Europe, what data is there from there about school and Coronavirus spreading?

Bollss · 14/08/2020 07:58

@MoreW1ne what do you mean by that?

I'm certainly not "following" this poster around. I mean, when you open a few threads and they're all by the same player it's not hard to realise what's going on is it?

I haven't jumped on multiple posts. If you don't want your posts to be commented on don't fucking post them would be my advice.

Friendsoftheearth · 14/08/2020 08:02

Lets open the schools and we can see for ourselves.

Sweden in my view have done a an amazing job dealing with the virus, their deaths are no higher than any other country, their economy has not faced the meltdown, children have been largely unaffected by school closures etc and they have continued to live a largely normal life, abeit with special measures to keep them as safe as possible. It is a sensible and mature approach and one I hope we will adopt in the near future.

Quartz2208 · 14/08/2020 08:02

They decided to go in for the longhaul and that chopping and changing measures, reopening and closing, adhoc local lockdowns that caused uncertainty and differences between streets and areas wasnt an approach they wanted to follow

They wanted something that was sustainable in the long term. Rules that were for the most part the same at the beginning as the end based around two way trust between the Government and the state.

I think even Sweden admit that in the peak there should have been more done particularly around carehomes.

But I think the problem is that yet again it is being used to make a statement for schools which the discussion around the Swedish approach shouldnt be about

sakura06 · 14/08/2020 08:08

The local.se article is from mid-March. The UK government also discussed herd immunity at that time.

The Telegraph article says:
‘In an email sent on March 14th, three days before Sweden closed down upper secondary schools and universities...’

This suggests schools for over-16s closed on March 17th which was 3 days before the UK closed schools.

The Telegraph article ends by saying:
‘In July, The Public Health Agency of Sweden published a joint study with the Finnish Institute of Health and Welfare, which found a similar rate of coronavirus cases among children in Sweden, which kept schools open, as in Finland, which closed them.’

I think crucially from The Guardian article (www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/09/swedens-covid-expert-warns-uk-opening-and-closing-schools-would-be-disastrous) what Tegnell was aiming for was that guidance would stay the same throughout without constant changes which would lead people to lose faith in the strategy and the government.

The big scandal in Sweden was over care homes (much like here).

I think you're right to question the narrative about school transmissions though and I think the UK governments should be trying to make things as safe as possible here.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 14/08/2020 08:09

@Friendsoftheearth

Lets open the schools and we can see for ourselves.

Sweden in my view have done a an amazing job dealing with the virus, their deaths are no higher than any other country, their economy has not faced the meltdown, children have been largely unaffected by school closures etc and they have continued to live a largely normal life, abeit with special measures to keep them as safe as possible. It is a sensible and mature approach and one I hope we will adopt in the near future.

That's not true though is it? Look at their deaths per million, look at the effect on their GDP, look at how their schools were set up.

It's completely wrong to say that their deaths were no worse, their economy wasn't affected and that as their schools are open it's safe to open our schools.

Some people are just so desperate to deny the existence of this pandemic that they'd rather bury their heads in the sand than accept any measures to control it.

MoreW1ne · 14/08/2020 08:12

[quote TrustTheGeneGenie]@MoreW1ne what do you mean by that?

I'm certainly not "following" this poster around. I mean, when you open a few threads and they're all by the same player it's not hard to realise what's going on is it?

I haven't jumped on multiple posts. If you don't want your posts to be commented on don't fucking post them would be my advice.[/quote]
Clearly I meant the same as you probably meant in you're post.

You seem to feel that you have some superior high ground to claim what is or isn't healthy for someone you known nothing about. I presumed I could join you on your self-righteous pedestal to equally judge others? Not room for two?

lljkk · 14/08/2020 08:21

How many Swedish children passed away from this virus

Zero, according to the Swedish prof interviewed on the radio yesterday. 12 children who tested + for covid-19 have had a spell in intensive care (in Sweden). Out of a population of 2 million. Also said that teachers were at no higher occupational risk for bad outcomes from C19 than average occupation in Sweden.

The Briefing Room on Radio 4 had a lot of coverage on other countries' experiences getting/keeping schools open in last 4 months.

Rethink on Radio4 (broadcast yesterday) also talked about how the best country responses featured populaces having high trust in their leaders. That open honest comms was the key to a sustainable and well-tolerated control strategy. They didn't say this, but I assume that means good comms & high trust leads to high voluntary compliance with control measures.

latticechaos · 14/08/2020 08:22

what Tegnell was aiming for was that guidance would stay the same throughout without constant changes which would lead people to lose faith in the strategy and the government.

I think this is interesting, our UK responses seems so 'two steps forward, one step back' that people have undoubtedly lost faith/patience/will to live.

I would like a more realistic, less aspirational approach, that lasted for more than a week before being changed!

I also think Sweden kept older children off school - we are not even considering this.

I could see we have stuff we can learn from Sweden - but not whole school reopenings, 30+ in classes, no SD, no masks because that is not what they did.

CrowdedHouseinQuarantine · 14/08/2020 08:23

how irresponsible of the telegraph

CrowdedHouseinQuarantine · 14/08/2020 08:25

he Telegraph article ends by saying:
‘In July, The Public Health Agency of Sweden published a joint study with the Finnish Institute of Health and Welfare, which found a similar rate of coronavirus cases among children in Sweden, which kept schools open, as in Finland, which closed them.’
interesting

CrowdedHouseinQuarantine · 14/08/2020 08:25

in that case, irresponsible of the op

latticechaos · 14/08/2020 08:27

@CrowdedHouseinQuarantine

how irresponsible of the telegraph
I did wonder given the telegraph is basically a Johnson mouthpiece how the government feel about it being put out by them?

If we were already 'at the limits' of what we could open as well as opening schools, and we are today going to open more venues/services, where does that leave schools?

MoreListeningLessChatting · 14/08/2020 08:30

In this article everyone disagrees with each other.

Because so many places were open in Sweden it is impossible to say where the teachers caught covid since it was allowed to run through the country with no lockdown.

It is a shame that no recording data is available to either prove or disprove whether keeping schools open contributed to deaths or didn't. There is no data. No school children died.

3 teachers in the country but how many of other occupations? Lots of people died in Sweden since they appeared to have gone for herd immunity and no lock down so as one scientist says covid is so widespread in the country he thinks track and trace is not important

MoreListeningLessChatting · 14/08/2020 08:32

I should have RTWH

"Zero, according to the Swedish prof interviewed on the radio yesterday. 12 children who tested + for covid-19 have had a spell in intensive care (in Sweden). Out of a population of 2 million. Also said that teachers were at no higher occupational risk for bad outcomes from C19 than average occupation in Sweden."

There you go and that's with schools open.

latticechaos · 14/08/2020 08:36

There you go and that's with schools open.

Two massive differences were average class size in Sweden is around half ours and older teens were at home.

latticechaos · 14/08/2020 08:38

I'd be happy with a UK plan to replicate Swedish schools - half sizes classes and online learning for sixthformers.

I think you'd get very healthy majority support for that.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 14/08/2020 08:41

This article describes schooling in Sweden. How anyone can think UK schools are comparable is beyond me. They describe social distancing in schools and combination of in school and remote learning amongst other changes.

www-tes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.tes.com/news/have-swedish-schools-really-carried-normal?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&amp&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15973907166547&amp_ct=1597390725720&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tes.com%2Fnews%2Fhave-swedish-schools-really-carried-normal