Coronovirus IS transmitted in schools

[mosquitofeast]

And lots of teachers have died

I am just clarifying this, as I don't know how many times I have read on Mumsnet that this has never happened. I don't know where this misinformation is coming from, but its rubbish

It was transmitted several hundred times in my school (secondary)before lock down. Hundreds of children and dozens of staff were affected. Some have been seriously ill and have been left with long term health problems, such as low lung capacity and loss of hearing.

I am a teacher and I was infected at school. I did not use public transport, or go into any shops or other businesses for the whole of March, and I was living alone. The only time I was in any contact with anyone else was in school

A school near us (also secondary) had to close a week before school closures were announced, as so many teachers were infected.

Thankfully, no staff or student in our school died, although several students have lost parents, and many have lost grandparents. One of my sixthformers has withdrawn her university application as her mum has lost a lung and a leg and now can't run her home and care for her younger children on her own.

However, according to the union, around 200 school staff have dies to date, so we have just been lucky so far.

So please don't repost this fake news that "no one has ever caught covid in a school" - because |I have watched it happen in front of my eyes, and experienced it myself.

If schools have to keep closing I am assuming parents will have to work more with schools. Last term could be seen as let’s just get through this and children’s wellbeing is more important, but if education is going to be continually disrupted then it needs to be a team effort for children to keep up with their education.

Ofsted are meant to be monitoring how schools are coping with return to school so hopefully there will be a more unified approach across the country. The curriculum is not suspended now so new topics have to be taught.

@Lianarose

Obvs I’m not happy for teachers to die I just don’t think the stats show they will and that this whole thread is scaremongering 🤷‍♀️

You can keep accusing people of scaremongering because you don't like what they say!!

In Feb/early March many of us were constantly accused of scaremongering when we suggested people got themselves organised because the virus was coming here/here & shortages & lockdowns were inevitable.

Did anyone apologise? Did they crap. They just keep on & on about not 'scaremongering' when they don't like what's being said.

🙇🏻‍♀️

it's harder at secondary level than primary).

Possibly. It's not being floated in my school just now But I hope it will.
*
Alternatively, the class stays in one room all day and the subject teacher comes to that classroom instead. Classes that need practical equipment should be minimised (eg art). Classes should only move if for example the science lab is needed for an experiment that requires a practical demonstration.**

Can't be done. Pupils are in different classes for each subject dependent on ability, level of course and other course choices.

Whilst the weather remains mild, could classes not be conducted outdoors where possible?

What if it rains? Do they then carry the furniture in? To where?
*
I'm just trying to understand what is it that's needed because PPE alone and closing schools are not the solution.*

For safety? Part time attendance, blended learning, PPE, more staff, more classrooms ... obviously not all of these are possible

@sonicbook

Thanks for coming back *@Flimflamfloogety*

What you describe is nothing like what will happen in a school.

30 young adults in one room with a teacher. No social distancing. No option to work from home.

Bell goes and at least 100 crammed into the social subjects corridors alone.

You say the schools will have something. In place and the whole point is no they won't. They are accepting it as a low risk environment and proceeding as normal with extra hand sanitizer.

My understanding is that in the majority of cases, at least for y7-9, the students are staying put in separate blocks/wings and the teachers moving around. This is what is happening at my kids' school. The older students have to move more because of options but the year groups have staggered start times to minimize corridor crowding. My kids' school also has the year groups starting the school day at different times to minimize cross bubble crowding on transport and at school entrances. Similarly, they gave staggered break and lunchtimes for the same reason.

@sonicbook

Because sadly *@Aragog* a classroom isn't COVID secure.

A decision has been made to prioritise the mental health of children and young people and their parents over the physical well-being of vulnerable school staff.

It's just that nobody (in Government) has the actual balls to admit it.

And btw I say that without actual judgment - my DC desperately need some normality - but let's not kid on that teachers aren't being put in the firing line here

Agreed. That’s how it is, but the government won’t say it so they keep pushing the idea that no one will get ill from schools reopening full time.

I said in another thread that I have personally undertaken a sort of risk assessment of my own situation and I’m happy to take the risk rather than have my class off any longer. It will mean not seeing my family as much, but I think that’s probably the case for lots of people at work.

I think that in my case it’s worth the risk, but I completely understand that vulnerable teachers may feel differently.

@WombOfOnesOwn

200 teachers sounds like a lot!

But it isn't. In fact, teachers have been quite shielded.

Of course, there are 500,000 teachers in the UK, a nation of 60 million people. That means eight-tenths of a percent of the UK population is teachers.

In the UK so far, 45,000 people have died of COVID complications.

Eight-tenths of one percent of this figure would be about 400.

Teachers have died at HALF the rate of the UK population in general. Do you expect teachers should simply be regarded as golden, irreplaceable heroes that must be put on a pedestal and never regarded in the same way as the rest of the population?

It's WILDLY ridiculous for teachers to whine that they're somehow being imposed upon when a quick look at the numbers reveals they're in no way being more impacted than anyone else.

I haven’t finished reading the thread but this is such a misuse of numbers I couldn’t pass it by.

Covid-19 has a very clear age profile so you need to take that into account with the numbers. Once you have done that you can work out the expected death rate among working age population and see how that compares to teachers.

@BwanaMakubwa this sounds sensible and I'm hopeful we'll end up with something similar.

Sadly like you say for most high school classes staying out isn't an option due to course levels and choices.

Some of those teachers who died surely picked it up elsewhere like at a pub/restaurant/cinema/bus/flight before lockdown

Or during lockdown they may have got it from a supermarket or family member

Nobody is saying it can’t be transmitted in schools, but what is your solution, shut schools for the next 3 years?

My solution is: instead of giving away billions to dodgy companies for covid-related things (PPE, test and trace that doesn't work), actually invest in state schools so they can open with social distancing, proper cleaning and sufficient staff. (this would include renting/ creating extra space if needed)

Our class sizes are among the worst in Europe.

The government has given out billions in non-competitive contracts to their mates that didn't deliver. The money would be far better spent in schools.

*Some of those teachers who died surely picked it up elsewhere like at a pub/restaurant/cinema/bus/flight before lockdown

Or during lockdown they may have got it from a supermarket or family member*

Sorry what's your point? Another one that believes in a giant force field around schools I take it?

@Hercwasonaroll I meant lowest risk strategy when it comes to preventing the national R increasing.

You are totally correct though. There are going to be outbreaks and school closures because there are not enough staff.

Boris is now down to "very much hoping" that schools will stay open in the event of local closures, according to Guardian, and the BBC are reminding everyone that the reason for their previous u-turn on opening schools was the requirement for social distancing and lack of resources "rather then a tussle with the unions".

It's not going as well as Gavin hoped!

@sonicbook

Thanks for taking the time to discuss openly, I am genuinely curious.

I can't speak for other parents, but personally I wouldn't mind if the top/middle/bottom set approached was abandoned for the time being, and some of the options were dropped (return to more of the classic subjects) to allow the kids to stay put for most of the day. Just for foreseeable future not as a permanent change.

Subjects like English for example, could easily be done outdoors if the weather is okay. Just get the kids to park their bums on the grass and do some reading as a group. Any lesson that was going to be a lecture anyway could be done outside - no furniture or equipment needed.

Our local primary school have canvassed local organisations for donations of gazebos to ensure as many lessons can be outdoors as possible. Again this can be managed at school level - get the governors and PTA involved.

I understand your concerns, but so far I'm not seeing anything that can't be managed if the head teacher just pulls their finger out (with the exception of kids wearing PPE). To liken it to the office environment, your head is your manager so to speak so they need to make your environment as safe as possible.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Do people also not understand that by not demanding infection control measures in the schools they are contributing to what they claim to not want - school closures. If teachers are off sick because they've caught it from students then parts of, or even whole schools will have to close. Is that what you want?

Why isn't it far more sensible to take precautions to try to keep schools open? It seems nonsense to me to stick your heads in the sand and pretend that people in schools won't get sick and staff won't be absent.

Exactly!

But not only that, but general community spread as well.

& obviously parents, grandparents etc.

But some people 'just want schools back' no matter the risk to anyone, because they are 'done' with having kids at home.

I know it's been tough, for lots of different 'groups' it has been extremely tough - but they seem to miss the point that community spread, teachers off sick (possibly for months) parents dying, & all the rest of it, isn't going to be exactly 'easy' either.

Even if teachers catch it from other adults in schools, that's still catching, and spreading it, in schools. Even if teachers catch it elsewhere (e.g. pub) and then bring it into schools, that will still be spreading it in schools (and other people catching it in schools). One of the problems with coronavirus is that people are often asymptomatic for a critical period - schools which are crowded, poorly ventilated will create loads of superspreader events.

It all means schools without proper safety measures are unsafe for staff.

Why are people so keen to believe that schools are some kind of magical space where germs don't transmit despite all available evidence and common sense suggesting otherwise?

I'm sure someone has posted this already but also - look what happened in Israel. This is going to be us as things stand. www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/world/middleeast/coronavirus-israel-schools-reopen.html

I think it is frankly negligent to reopen schools without some sensible discussions about how to mitigate the risks of transmission - even if the disease is almost always mild in children.! The risk to staff - is there, it cannot be swept under the carpet. Teachers - at secondary at least must be allowed to wear PPE ( or whatever helps protect them) if they wish.

@sonicbook

I thought my point was obvious.

No I don’t, I teach in a muti academy trust so will be moving around 3 secondary schools in a bubble of about 3,000 I imagine.

My understanding is that in the majority of cases, at least for y7-9, the students are staying put in separate blocks/wings and the teachers moving around.

Its not the case that the majority are doing this, we just don't have the facilities to be able to do this and run the required KS4 options as well.

We have however adapted and put other things in place.

We will have to see what bojo does tomorrow with his next announcement and DoE guidance for schools.

But I am willing to bet that with the current amount of spin and bombing of media about those nasty, lazy teachers and their unions it won't be good news for schools.

And if its not good news for schools it won't be good news in the long run for pupils and their parents.

I would like to see the potential role of Covid 19 sniffer dogs extended. At the moment dogs are being trained up for possible deployment in airports. Importantly, they can identify the asymptomatic. Swabs of saliva/sweat can be used. It’s a quick process compared to other methods in current use and beats taking temperatures as an initial screening method.

If they could be used in schools in a way that would not cause alarm/embarrassment to pupils or endanger the dogs themselves, it might be another way of minimising risk. (These are not big, scary noisy dogs.)

Funding would be required and further work to investigate viability.

It would certainly beat having a class hamster!

(I might be barking mad in suggesting this!)

As a governor I am involved in a fundraising scheme to try and get more laptops for the local schools as the Government scheme did not provide nearly enough. So hopefully will mean more children will have access to technology if schools close for self isolation etc.

sonicbook

Thanks for taking the time to discuss openly, I am genuinely curious.

I can't speak for other parents, but personally I wouldn't mind if the top/middle/bottom set approached was abandoned for the time being, and some of the options were dropped (return to more of the classic subjects) to allow the kids to stay put for most of the day. Just for foreseeable future not as a permanent change.

That could work for the younger children but the minute course choices come into it it's impossible. Genuinely. They are also split into different classes for practical subjects adding another layer of difficulty.

Subjects like English for example, could easily be done outdoors if the weather is okay. Just get the kids to park their bums on the grass and do some reading as a group. Any lesson that was going to be a lecture anyway could be done outside - no furniture or equipment needed.

Again, and I'm not trying to be difficult or rude but that's just not how teaching goes down. We don't lecture. The kids work on stuff. They need a desk and materials. If lessons were just a teacher reading or lecturing then possibly three percent of the children would engage / understand and the rest would switch off. What would we do without a board. Something to model answers on? Have you ever tried writing on a bit of paper on soggy grass?

Our local primary school have canvassed local organisations for donations of gazebos to ensure as many lessons can be outdoors as possible. Again this can be managed at school level - get the governors and PTA involved.

A good idea! We could probably do that for about a month before the weather became unbearable. What about the furniture though? We're not getting extra funding and the janitors are very busy as it is.

I understand your concerns, but so far I'm not seeing anything that can't be managed if the head teacher just pulls their finger out (with the exception of kids wearing PPE). To liken it to the office environment, your head is your manager so to speak so they need to make your environment as safe as possible.

You're massively oversimplifying how schools operate and children learn. Unless you can magic new classrooms and more staff these things can't just be managed if the head teacher pulls their finger out.

@ineedaholidaynow

As a governor I am involved in a fundraising scheme to try and get more laptops for the local schools as the Government scheme did not provide nearly enough. So hopefully will mean more children will have access to technology if schools close for self isolation etc.

Surely you can't mean that the ones that the government promised to deliver never turned up?

(sorry sarcasm)

It is a complete joke that you have to do this when the current propaganda is that education is being prioritised.

OverTheRainbow88

Why are you even using the term bubble?

Also teachers are expected to exist outside of these "bubbles"

@OverTheRainbow88
Nope still don't understand your point.

@sonicbook

Fair enough.

I think a little flexibility in teaching methods is needed. I understand that none of what I suggested is the norm, but for the time being my view is that a return to the old school way of teaching is what's needed to keep it safer. Yes it won't be fun for the kids, and some will struggle but if it keeps teachers from getting sick then that's a win right? It's still preferable to absolutely no education at all.