Coronovirus IS transmitted in schools

[mosquitofeast]

And lots of teachers have died

I am just clarifying this, as I don't know how many times I have read on Mumsnet that this has never happened. I don't know where this misinformation is coming from, but its rubbish

It was transmitted several hundred times in my school (secondary)before lock down. Hundreds of children and dozens of staff were affected. Some have been seriously ill and have been left with long term health problems, such as low lung capacity and loss of hearing.

I am a teacher and I was infected at school. I did not use public transport, or go into any shops or other businesses for the whole of March, and I was living alone. The only time I was in any contact with anyone else was in school

A school near us (also secondary) had to close a week before school closures were announced, as so many teachers were infected.

Thankfully, no staff or student in our school died, although several students have lost parents, and many have lost grandparents. One of my sixthformers has withdrawn her university application as her mum has lost a lung and a leg and now can't run her home and care for her younger children on her own.

However, according to the union, around 200 school staff have dies to date, so we have just been lucky so far.

So please don't repost this fake news that "no one has ever caught covid in a school" - because |I have watched it happen in front of my eyes, and experienced it myself.

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia

In England we are thankful that we have nearby Scottish (guinea pig) schools to closely monitor and observe before other UK schools reopen (hopefully).

But isn't it a sad state of affairs when something has to go very wrong for the government to do something right?

Simple precautions could be taken, that whilst being uncomfortable for some would aid in the prevention of this virus spreading.

Why can some people not see that it would beneficial for all to do these things?

@Flimflamfloogety has your office not changed their configuration etc? If they haven't they are breaking H&S guidelines

@Flimflamfloogety is your office covid secure? There are clear guidelines which your employer must follow as the Government have made this the law. If you are having to work in an unsafe environment, I would fully support you in wanting to change this and going down the legal options which are available to you.

The thing is that schools as of yet don't have the same legal requirements as your office. So as you help to make your office safer, as is legally a requirement, we'd appreciate your support in making our workplace safer too.

[quote Flimflamfloogety]@sonicbook

It's no different to working in the private sector and having to share a confined office space with 30 people - our employers aren't offering us PPE, we can choose to wear a mask if we wish but there is no compulsion for others to do so.

My office is in a high rise, so no windows we can open, I have to share the same conditioned air as everyone else. I have to share a confined lift space with strangers, linger in hallways waiting for the lift, share possibly contaminated surfaces. It's no different.

By your logic, why are teachers so precious but private sector is expendable?[/quote]
No offence but this argument is so stupid - “well I don’t have adequate protection so why should you?” Show me a teacher on this thread who has said that inadequate protection is acceptable for other workers.
We ALL deserve to be properly protected as far as we reasonably can be. This includes me, you, any worker. The argument is not “well let’s all suffer and be at risk”. This shouldn’t really be hard to grasp.

I understand teachers' concerns and I think that safety provisions for teaching staff need to be reassessed (especially around mask wearing in secondary schools) but I also believe that it's important to pay attention to scientific research. The PHE study referenced in the media yesterday involved 100 schools and 20,000 participants. The full results haven't been published yet but the it is highly likely to corroborate the thesis that children are minimally involved in transmission. There is a growing body of research that suggests that the main risk in schools is adult to adult transmission (rather than child to child or child to adult) and this can be mitigated against. Some posters seen to be suggesting that scientific research is always "fake news", which is concerning.

@IncidentsandAccidents I'd feel more reassured if the children and adults had been tested under the same conditions as they will be facing in September, rather than the situation we had in June which was different as we had smaller bubbles and no adults crossing the bubbles.

I'd also feel more reassured if the report was fully published and not dipped into early as a desperate measure to convince parents of safety.

The main problem is one of transparency and trust with the government, as has been stated above - whatever they say now, a sizeable chunk won't believe them either way.

Ultimately it’s the children who will suffer if schools are badly prepared, because if there are outbreaks then PHE will probably advise individual schools to shut, and then children at that school will continue to have an interrupted education. I find it interesting how teachers are being blamed for kids being off school when a) we have absolutely no say in the matter and b) we are wanting to provide an environment for them which has the best chance of remaining open.

I have this view because I am thinking of what is best for the children - there should be absolutely no question of them staying off any longer, but we run the risk of them being off and on due to outbreaks. So how do we mitigate that risk for them? We need to ensure that we’re not just relying on slightly increased cleaning, because that’s not enough.

IncidentsandAccidents

I wouldn't call it "fake news" once it has been published, but cherry picking parts of an unpublished study and taking it as the entire truth is plain stupid.

I agree that there are many reports that say that young children may transmit the virus less, there are also many reports (often the same ones) that state that older children and teenagers spread the virus at the same rate as adults.

The point that many of us teachers are trying to make is that nursery is different to primary and primary is different to secondary.

After all many secondary school pupils have adult bodies and systems.

I understand teachers' concerns and I think that safety provisions for teaching staff need to be reassessed (especially around mask wearing in secondary schools) but I also believe that it's important to pay attention to scientific research. The PHE study referenced in the media yesterday involved 100 schools and 20,000 participants. The full results haven't been published yet but the it is highly likely to corroborate the thesis that children are minimally involved in transmission. There is a growing body of research that suggests that the main risk in schools is adult to adult transmission (rather than child to child or child to adult) and this can be mitigated against. Some posters seen to be suggesting that scientific research is always "fake news", which is

What constitutes an adult though? Are the 16 and 17 year olds I teach adults?

My office is as safe as it can be. Every other desk is empty to ensure distancing, kitchen is off limits, anyone who can work from is still encouraged to do so. Some of us can't though.

We're not piled on top of each other, but we're still in the same space with no windows to open (I used this as the argument as I've seen this mentioned on the thread a lot).

The lift in unavoidable, and as the building is shared (different companies on each floor) there is only so much my own employer can do about how shared spaces are used.

My point being that just as my employer has taken steps to make it as safe as possible (note there is a difference between that and completely safe - the risk cannot be completely eliminated), I'm sure schools will do everything possible to make the environment as safe as possible. We just need to accept that the risk cannot be completely removed.

For the record, I'm 100% on board with secondary pupils wearing masks.

Whether it is or whether it isn't transmitted in schools, I expect schools to be fully up to speed with plans for online learning and for these to be inspected. No plans for inspection. Actual inspection.

Some of the provision has been fantastic, but I think it is the duty of every SLT to root out those not on board with this. We all know there are lazy or bolshy arses in every organisation in the world, and now is the time that in the teaching profession that objectors to home learning provision cannot be tolerated.

I have seen posts saying that some teachers are vulnerable/shielding. Well, so am I. Doesn't stop me operating a keyboard at home! The danger is from the virus; at home they will presumably be safe and will be well able to set/mark work.

Thanks for coming back @Flimflamfloogety

What you describe is nothing like what will happen in a school.

30 young adults in one room with a teacher. No social distancing. No option to work from home.

Bell goes and at least 100 crammed into the social subjects corridors alone.

You say the schools will have something. In place and the whole point is no they won't. They are accepting it as a low risk environment and proceeding as normal with extra hand sanitizer.

@Flimflamfloogety

Why have your company not ensured your offices are Covid secure? Not to do so is not on. And just because some forms are happy to do so doesn't mean all should

@year5teacher

Ultimately it’s the children who will suffer if schools are badly prepared, because if there are outbreaks then PHE will probably advise individual schools to shut, and then children at that school will continue to have an interrupted education. I find it interesting how teachers are being blamed for kids being off school when a) we have absolutely no say in the matter and b) we are wanting to provide an environment for them which has the best chance of remaining open.

I have this view because I am thinking of what is best for the children - there should be absolutely no question of them staying off any longer, but we run the risk of them being off and on due to outbreaks. So how do we mitigate that risk for them? We need to ensure that we’re not just relying on slightly increased cleaning, because that’s not enough.

A thousand times this

I'm sure schools will do everything possible to make the environment as safe as possible. We just need to accept that the risk cannot be completely removed.

No one is expecting the risk to be completely removed anywhere. Primary children can’t wear masks, the windows barely crack open in my classroom (which has had to be treated for black mould over summer), the government guidance says we can’t distance, and there hasn’t been any more funding for cleaners.

The government themselves have said that we’re relying on hygiene and distancing, and there’s not going to be any distancing. So it’s just hygiene. And I haven’t seen much evidence of that being at a high level.

I would like to have your attitude and be sure that schools will do whatever they can, but ultimately without funding and support from the government there’s not a huge amount individual schools can do. And it shouldn’t be left up to individual schools anyway.

The government guidance about funding for Covid states “schools should proceed with a phased wider opening and any measures associated with it within existing resources, as any costs incurred as part of that process cannot be claimed through this fund”.

My point being that just as my employer has taken steps to make it as safe as possible (note there is a difference between that and completely safe - the risk cannot be completely eliminated), I'm sure schools will do everything possible to make the environment as safe as possible. We just need to accept that the risk cannot be completely removed.

I don't think anyone is calling for there to be no risk in offices or schools, but saying "schools will do everything possible, but they aren't allowed any extra space or any wfh or money to buy cleaning products" makes it a bit daft to start arguing that your workplace is comparable. You have reduced numbers in attendance - we aren't allowed to. You have spaced your desks - we can't. So it's hardly a helpful comparison.

If you were saying that your office was returning under conditions which are essentially exactly the same as March, and you were being unreasonable for asking why, you'd be pissed off too.

Also, @Flimflamfloogety if you have every other desk empty then it’s not even slightly the same as classrooms.

@Limetreeinthefrontgarden

I just posted this newspaper article about low-risk of transmission in schools: www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-schools-reopen-children-covid-study-boris-johnson-a9661686.html

The article starts: One of the most detailed studies yet will show that it is safe for schools to fully reopen next month, a leading child health expert has assured parents and students.

Here is a quote towards the end (my bold): “Everything you do to reopen society will impact the national R [rate], but reopening schools, we believe, has a very small impact on it. The majority of cases are staff, not students,” Prof Viner said.

(Professor Russell Viner, president of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health.)

In a nutshell: schools are safe for kids, but less so for adult staff.

As plenty of PPs have said, data from schools in the UK when they were only partially open during a nationwide lockdown, is somewhat meaningless.

Prof Viner is probably correct that reopening schools will have a small impact on R. The original Imperial report suggested that too.

What does that actually mean? R is the average number of people infected by one infectious person. Even if there are lots of outbreaks in schools, they are easier to control with testing and quarantine because you know everyone who has been there so you can prevent it spreading further than their households with quarantine. Compare that to a reopening a night club where, instead of the same 1000 pupils every day, you have 1000 different individuals every night. Also, it is an average. R within a school could be very high but that would have little impact on the national R because 1000 pupils and staff are a very small percentage of the population.

Controlling R stops the NHS being overwhelmed. It doesn't mean that there won't be outbreaks in schools. There will probably be many.

Children have the lowest risk of serious complications from COVID-19 of all age groups. Track, trace and quarantine is easier in venues where the same people attend every day. Therefore opening schools is one of the lowest risk strategies.

In a nutshell: it is safe for society to open schools, but it doesn't mean there is not substantial risk of catching the virus at school.

Ah I've now see. The update. I'm sorry but that is nothing at all like classrooms will be.

I do think people, including parents and the children, really relies just how close together everyone will be in classrooms next month - this week in Scotland.

There will be no masks, no every other desk free, no form of social distancing possible, very small crowded rooms,otw ventilation - many classrooms o ly have very small openings on the windows.

I see dh's office set up now - it only allows for 50% of staff to be in even though they already have way more space around each desk than I've ever had - and it makes me wonder how a classroom can be classed as Covid secure in comparison.

Whether it is or whether it isn't transmitted in schools, I expect schools to be fully up to speed with plans for online learning and for these to be inspected. No plans for inspection. Actual inspection.

Some of the provision has been fantastic, but I think it is the duty of every SLT to root out those not on board with this. We all know there are lazy or bolshy arses in every organisation in the world, and now is the time that in the teaching profession that objectors to home learning provision cannot be tolerated

I agree with this to a large extent but we've got to have parents on board with it too and in my school community certainly (primary) parents couldn't or wouldn't work with online learning which meant a lot just didn't do anything. Not sure what the answer is there for young children who can't work independently but it might be something we have to rearrange our working lives around this year.

Because sadly @Aragog a classroom isn't COVID secure.

A decision has been made to prioritise the mental health of children and young people and their parents over the physical well-being of vulnerable school staff.

It's just that nobody (in Government) has the actual balls to admit it.

And btw I say that without actual judgment - my DC desperately need some normality - but let's not kid on that teachers aren't being put in the firing line here

Therefore opening schools is one of the lowest risk strategies.

Until the staff have to isolate and school has to shut.

@sonicbook

Bell goes and at least 100 crammed into the social subjects corridors alone.

This seems like something that can be managed at school level though. Can't the school day/end and lesson times be staggered to minimise this? I appreciate this is a huge undertaking and I am not suggesting it is simple to organise (and of course it's harder at secondary level than primary).

Alternatively, the class stays in one room all day and the subject teacher comes to that classroom instead. Classes that need practical equipment should be minimised (eg art). Classes should only move if for example the science lab is needed for an experiment that requires a practical demonstration.

Whilst the weather remains mild, could classes not be conducted outdoors where possible?

I'm just trying to understand what is it that's needed because PPE alone and closing schools are not the solution.

Are any other countries advisory bodies claiming it cannot be caught/spread at school?

Here in France it's a given that it's the pretty much the primary source of infection.

This seems like something that can be managed at school level though. Can't the school day/end and lesson times be staggered to minimise this? I appreciate this is a huge undertaking and I am not suggesting it is simple to organise (and of course it's harder at secondary level than primary).*

Possibly. It's not being floated in my school just now But I hope it will.
*
Alternatively, the class stays in one room all day and the subject teacher comes to that classroom instead. Classes that need practical equipment should be minimised (eg art). Classes should only move if for example the science lab is needed for an experiment that requires a practical demonstration.*

Can't be done. Pupils are in different classes for each subject dependent on ability, level of course and other course choices.

Whilst the weather remains mild, could classes not be conducted outdoors where possible?

What if it rains? Do they then carry the furniture in? To where?
*
I'm just trying to understand what is it that's needed because PPE alone and closing schools are not the solution.*

For safety? Part time attendance, blended learning, PPE, more staff, more classrooms ... obviously not all of these are possible.