School re-opening may not go well.

[jomartin281271]

Here's an article from the New York Times documenting what happened when the Israeli government decided to re-open their schools. They thought they had beaten the virus (which this country certainly hasn't) and within days it was spreading again like wildfire. One section of the article is particularly interesting. It reads:

'Public health experts worldwide have coalesced around a set of guidelines for reopening schools.

A major recommendation is to create groups of 10 to 15 students who stay together in classrooms, at recess and lunchtime, with teachers assigned to only one group. Each group has minimal contact with other groups, limiting any spread of infection. And if a case of Covid-19 emerges, one group can be quarantined at home while others can continue at school.

Other key recommendations include staggering schedules or teaching older students online, keeping desks several feet apart, sanitizing classrooms more frequently, providing ventilation and opening windows if possible, and requiring masks for staff and students old enough to wear them properly.'

Our government are going to be cramming the kids into the same old classrooms, students won't be wearing masks, and the older students won't be able to study remotely. And this in a country with one of the highest mortality rates from Covid in the world.

You can read the full article here.

www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/world/middleeast/coronavirus-israel-schools-reopen.html

I'd be fine with schools splitting classes and my kids only going in mornings or afternoons with some homeworking sent back with them. Or having them do 2 days one week and 3 the next. Or for the schools to do maths, Eng, Science focus each day and I'll do the music, life skills, sport or whatever. It's still better than having them off all the time.

The bottom line is that if you can't significantly increase teacher numbers (which you can't), then logically you have to reduce pupil numbers (through rotas and blended learning). That's the only way imo, but it will still be a problem for working parents.

Which I also suggested.

are taking public transport

Wait, not only d you know they go to work (with masks and SD and reduced workers on site btw) but you know how they get there too!

I agree that schools should only be open when the cases are low!

They could have done part time school to start with perhaps. But I guess that's no good for working families.

They can't magic another 7 classrooms in a primary school unfortunately. So the only option we have in primary schools are 20-30 kids per class. I don't know if some schools are larger than 30 per class. There's around 30 in my daughter's class....

They should have considered trying things before the summer. All kids back for two weeks in their new class to learn what was expected of them and also to see how it affected the spread. But instead they are chucking them in the deep end in september.

My daughters school can't provide hot meals now either but there's a cold sandwhich option. So children are also potientally loosing a healthy cooked meal too. It just feels they know it's dangerous otherwise why can't they offer warm meals to children? All the restrictions too. Trivial things like no backpacks. Wearing pe kit on pe days. No issue with this as such. But we walk a mile to school so on indoor pe days she will need plimsolls and trainers. But I don't know if they will allow her to take both. They've not explained if the school are providing fruit and stuff at break either. Confused by small details. Also if they have pack up no idea if you take the classroom water bottles, plus another bottle for a drink at dinner! Considering they can't have backpacks I hope not.

It's all a faff but we've got to try otherwise the virus wins and robs the kids of another six months.

I’m sick of the moaning about schools not being safe.

Is that you Gav?

[quote MangoFeverDream]You are comparing apples with a dumpster fire

Japan does neither widespread testing nor does it do lockdown. SK afaik didn’t do a lockdown either, though it set early standards in testing.

There have certainly been school closures and lockdowns since school returned and a study which came out of South Korea about children's role in the spread

And yet they still feel fine leaving schools open ...

A better comparison for schools here internationally would be Israel. Go on, tell me how that went

Why do you think Israel compares to the U.K. or US more than East Asian countries?

And about Israel:

In Israel, schools closed for a single case, and close contacts of every infected individual were tested and quarantined, Aflalo says. By mid-June, 503 students and 167 staff had been infected, and 355 schools had closed temporarily. (That number is a small fraction of the 5000 schools across Israel.)

That means a vast majority of students could continue their education with little disruption.

Here’s a level-headed article about school openings: www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks[/quote]
That article has sensible suggestions Such as masks, small classes, distancing, compliance and testing/tracking. None of which are in the government plans for UK

Israel compares very well with UK : the class sizes are large and were full size, SD was not implemented, schooling was full time, and the students were not wearing masks. (in fact they were supposed to but it was hot so they took them off as the aircon was switched off).

OP one word stands out from one of your last posts - Fear.

We do need to fear the virus but we can't let that fear consume us.

I think schools going back is a good thing, but i am of course nervous as well.

The main reason for my nervousness is the government incompetence and also the increasing number of people who are not respecting social distancing.

My kids being educated at school is my top priority . I want them and others around them to be as safe as possible. So as a family we will socially distance even though the kids will not be doing so at school.

We will reduce the risk as much as possible of us catching it outwith the school.

Maybe if we all did that, then less kids teachers will catch it?

Japan does neither widespread testing nor does it do lockdown. SK afaik didn’t do a lockdown either, though it set early standards in testing.

I was talking about their mitigation measures in schools. Can you come back and compare those to ours?

[quote MangoFeverDream]You are comparing apples with a dumpster fire

Japan does neither widespread testing nor does it do lockdown. SK afaik didn’t do a lockdown either, though it set early standards in testing.

There have certainly been school closures and lockdowns since school returned and a study which came out of South Korea about children's role in the spread

And yet they still feel fine leaving schools open ...

A better comparison for schools here internationally would be Israel. Go on, tell me how that went

Why do you think Israel compares to the U.K. or US more than East Asian countries?

And about Israel:

In Israel, schools closed for a single case, and close contacts of every infected individual were tested and quarantined, Aflalo says. By mid-June, 503 students and 167 staff had been infected, and 355 schools had closed temporarily. (That number is a small fraction of the 5000 schools across Israel.)

That means a vast majority of students could continue their education with little disruption.

Here’s a level-headed article about school openings: www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks[/quote]
That article goes through all of the things that scientists say can be done in schools to mitigate risk, none of which our government are planning to do!

Nobody is saying schools shouldn't be opened.

We are saying that schools should be opened using the mitigation measures used in the best-performing systems elsewhere - bearing in mind, however, that the community at large is significantly non-compliant even with the fairly lax strictures currently in place, which does increase the risk.

bearing in mind, however, that the community at large is significantly non-compliant even with the fairly lax strictures currently in place, which does increase the risk.

And therein lies the problem.

How many who are worried about schools going back are part of the problem within the community?

They won't spread it to their family unless their kids catches it in school?

They can't magic another 7 classrooms in a primary school unfortunately.

No, but they can put porter cabins in the playground and car park or use the community centre or church hall. Or they could have done if it had been planned. We have failed to plan and continued in a gung-ho, it will all be ok if we just think positively attitude.

Unfortunately there are many schools where there are more than 30 to a class.

No, but they can put porter cabins in the playground and car park or use the community centre or church hall. Or they could have done if it had been planned.

My kids school is 3 form entry. So they would need 21 porter cabins?

Is there sufficient security in community centres / churches to ensure that my child is safe?

@Trashtara

They can't magic another 7 classrooms in a primary school unfortunately.

No, but they can put porter cabins in the playground and car park or use the community centre or church hall. Or they could have done if it had been planned. We have failed to plan and continued in a gung-ho, it will all be ok if we just think positively attitude.

Unfortunately there are many schools where there are more than 30 to a class.

I agree with you that smaller pupil numbers is the way this can work, but I don’t think that in many cases having portacabins or utilising public buildings would be feasible.

We have E.g. 9 classes of 30+. To split those in half, we’d need 8 portacabins if we put a group in the hall. We have no other rooms that could be used. Our playground is small but could probably take one portacabin, maybe two to allow any space for playtime. The school field is a tiny strip as most of it was sold off for housing. If we put two portacabins on the grounds, that would mean any outside time or play time would be hugely restricted due to space. There are no community centres around here. There are some function suites that are costly to hire and one church hall, but that’s attached to a faith school, so presume they’d get first dibs on that. There are some sports clubs, but they are hoping to have their yoga/Pilates etc sessions running from September. If we travelled further into nearby towns to use public spaces, there are another load of schools who would also be fighting over them and be much closer.

It’s a pretty moot point anyway as the government won’t do it as they know it would cost them.

I’m about to be in a bubble of 1,700 in one school, 1,200 in another and 1,000 in the third of our multi academy trust!!!!!

All schools are different. They would need 11 porter cabins at my DD school and there's no space. There is no church hall near by. There are some schools near churches. But there's probably 2 schools to each church hall so it won't work.

Village schools often only have 4 classrooms too. No chance of fitting by g porter cabins in.

Nice idea though and it would have been a solution if there was enough space...

Mango that is all ridiculous though.
If the countries have lower rates through wearing masks
The schools have few outbreaks due to masks. And probably SD
Yes lets get to those same situations as a start point.
Rather than hmm we have increasing spread again so it's already over 1. Let's open schools with no mitigations that do anything and then close them after 2 cases by which point the whole school hqs it job done for herd immunity.

Israel only took the masks off temporarily due to heat so they knew it would go back down after.

If the refrain of 'open as normal, no SD, large bubbles' continues then maybe so many parents will refuse to send their children back that class sizes will be about 15 and the mitigation measures will be achieved without spending any money. Maybe that's the government's plan!

The only way to make schools completely safe that I can think of would be to enforce all households with children to completely isolate for the last 14 days of August and turn all schools into boarding schools. On the first day of school all children would have to travel to their school by car and then form a bubbled boarding school which they'd stay in till half term. Teachers would also have to board.
Don't think it would be a very popular solution , somehow!!

I don't think it's true that school plans are 'open as normal' though. I haven't seen ours in detail yet but the bits I know are a long way from normality.

It’s a pretty moot point anyway as the government won’t do it as they know it would cost them.

Yes unfortunately. I feel very sorry for the kids, the teachers and the parents. It appears that their education and well-being are not being put first.

More feasible is for secondary schools to go online and primary schools to go to half sizes in secondary school classrooms.

Though I’m not sure the feet of my teenies would be able to reach the floor (and the toilets are probably too far away from the class so they would either get caught short on the way or get lost and never return!)

Thanks for posting. So glad that people are continuing to talk and shout about this. It’s not good enough and I don’t know how I can ever trust a government who are quite happy to pretend that it is. Even if / when they back down. I just can’t trust them.

I don't think it's true that school plans are 'open as normal' though. I haven't seen ours in detail yet but the bits I know are a long way from normality.

I don't know to be honest, it isn't an issue in my kids school as there are only 16 in the class.

I'd be interested to know how others are managing it though.

@lifeafter50

There seems to be an assumption that if there is a 'case', then bubbles etc need to self/isolate. Better solution is that if a child has symptoms they are tested with the new 90 min test and of posit r they go home. No one else dies unless they go through the same procedure. Children will be mixing on buses etc so pointless to isolate certain groups who are have not actually had a positive test. Those who are anxious can either de-register or work out a system of SD from their children and send them to school. Society must not be allowed to grind to a halt because of unrealistic demands from those who are totally disproportionate in their fears.

Are you actually suggesting that test and trace just doesn't apply in schools. So if a child tests positive their close contacts don't isolate unless they show symptoms? Even though we know people are contagious before they show symptoms?