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Covid

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For the people who think they've been duped...

415 replies

mac12 · 01/08/2020 17:18

I'm not trying to start a bunfight but I'm just curious about this thought process. People who think they've been duped by coronavirus & think lockdowns were a hysterical over-reaction...

  • what do you think is going on when countries like China haven't rolled back from their strong stance on this? Do you think it's just to save face? I mean would a country really take a wrecking ball to their economy to save face?
  • why have countries like Israel or some US states, which did reopen, decide to start closing down again? Why wouldn't they just crack on and carry on with full reopening if it was so clear that they had been duped & it had all been an overreaction?
  • why wouldn't all governments be taking the Sweden line? Our govt isn't averse to the odd U-turn, why wouldn't they do this if they genuinely thought it was safe and they had overreacted?
I'm just wondering why people think governments would persist with this if it was so obviously an overreaction?
OP posts:
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9
GrumpiestOldWoman · 02/08/2020 20:20

[quote Karenovirus]*Except that we've gone from nearly 1000 deaths per say to

Sunrise234 · 02/08/2020 20:26

@jasjas1973 why would you stick two fingers up to the oldies if you were young?

These oldies are those young people’s parents and grandparents. If they have cancer or other diseases they may not even be that old. I know a few teenagers with cancer whose parents are fit and healthy but shield to protect their child.

In WW2 they were told to turn off their lights so the planes couldn’t see them. This would have affected their mental health, education, social lives etc, but no one turned their lights on and decided that their ability to see better was more important than other people’s lives.
Our young people are exactly the same, the majority are following the rules to pay back the sacrifices the older generations have made for them.

Chessie678 · 02/08/2020 20:30

I’m sceptical about the lockdown approach. I’m not a conspiracy theorist. I do believe that covid is a potentially serious illness which would have killed many more people if allowed to run through the population. I don’t think there’s an easy answer and I’m not certain that my view will turn out to be correct. We won’t know how we should have acted until we have the benefit of hindsight in many years time and maybe not even then.

Basically I don’t think lockdowns are a viable long term solution and I think the harm they cause probably outweighs the deaths they postpone.

My main issue with the lockdown approach is that we still don’t have a way out of it other than everyone being vaccinated. We are apparently at the limit of how much we can open up now without cases rising but keeping the current level of restrictions in place until most people are vaccinated will do catastrophic damage to society.

Recessions shorten lives. We know this - it has been well studied. I think the years of life lost due to the economic damage caused by lockdowns will be higher than years which would have been lost due to covid if we hadn’t locked down. This is partly because most of those who die of covid are older whereas recession will affect the health of those of working age. Lockdowns also dramatically decrease quality of life for almost the whole population probably over a period of many years and I don’t believe we should save lives at any cost to the quality of life of others. I would never personally expect strangers to give up their jobs or education to protect me from illness.

I think people understand the harm done by the virus itself quite well and the press has focused on this. Many on mumsnet are knowledgable about covid. I think very few people understand much about the economic aspects and particularly how mass job losses in circumstances where replacement jobs will not be available can affect the health and well-being of the newly unemployed and the ability of the government to fund public services. I accept that there would have been an economic impact whatever happened but we have destroyed huge parts of our economy. I don’t see how any other approach could have caused more damage.

Added to this lockdown is risky because it would be so easy to end up where we started with exponential growth as soon as restrictions are lifted. We would then have gained nothing but still be left with the tremendous cost of lockdown. Even if we wanted to we may not be able to maintain current restrictions - if enough people stop following the rules it won’t practically be possible to enforce them unless we want to turn the army on people hugging their parents or not wearing a mask, which is a really sinister idea.

My favoured approach would have been throwing huge resources at protecting the vulnerable and otherwise letting the virus run its course alongside some measures to slow it e.g no mass gatherings inside , promoting hand washing, working from home if possible etc (I’m not arguing for the chaotic approach adopted in Brazil etc. We could have spent almost anything on protecting the shielded and it would have been cheaper than furlough. E.g we could have paid care workers extra to isolate themselves for certain periods. A short lockdown to build up nhs capacity may also have been justified.

We would then have had some level of immunity in the population. I accept that we’re not sure how long this would last but we’re not sure about lots of things related to lockdown such as when we’ll get a vaccine either so every approach is a risk.

I think the government ultimately didn’t take this approach because they would be blamed for lives lost to covid but not so much for lives lost due to recession, which are harder to measure. It would also have been difficult to go against the international consensus because people would have panicked. There is now an element of sunk cost because we don’t want to have locked down for nothing. Epidemiologists were always going to concentrate on the issue of deaths from the virus because that’s their field so it’s hardly surprising that they recommend lockdowns - they’re not qualified to assess the damage done by lockdown itself.

Anyway I think it’s unhelpful to call people like me stupid. I just have a different view of the relative risk of different approaches. I don’t think anyone should be claiming lockdowns are a success just yet. If we manage to ease restrictions further while keeping the virus under control and then manage to vaccinate everyone fairly soon I’ll concede I was wrong.

Babs709 · 02/08/2020 20:30

but no one turned their lights on
Not true.

fullfact.org/online/blitz-spirit-tweet/

Jussayingisall · 02/08/2020 20:32

Apart from the older generation like my parents never fought in any wars so that is gonna wear a little thin with the youngsters. I can imagine when I'm a pensioner and somebody says "respect your elders cause they errr was able to buy a house and cars and lived a comfortable lifestyle"

Sunrise234 · 02/08/2020 20:38

@Babs709 thank you for sharing that - you hear so much negativity about the younger generation that it’s sort of a relief to know that there was selfish people back then too lol.
But I definitely don’t agree with turning the lights on just as much as I don’t agree with not following the rules today.

I work with teenagers and find they are more respecting of their elders and appreciate the sacrifices they made during the wars more than the now middle-aged generation does. Even though the media will make them all out to be thugs and yobs.

jasjas1973 · 02/08/2020 20:38

@Sunrise234 what exactly has our generation done for the young? loaded them with huge debt, no jobs, hyper expensive housing and now they have to stay in & lose their ZHC work.

As for your WW2 analogy, the blitz lasted for a few months and most were not affected by bombing raids and the vast majority who served n WW2 are long dead.
But you might be better asking why Johnson ceded care homes with CV, killing off the last few survivors? inc one of the last survivors of the Dam buster raids.

The Young owe us nothing at all.

Jussayingisall · 02/08/2020 20:45

Here here. They did buy houses for £150,000 which is now worth £600,00, so my in laws might have done us a favour one day 🙂

Sunrise234 · 02/08/2020 20:53

@jasjas1973 yes you are correct. The world is almost destroyed because of the generations that didn’t care for it. But does that mean that everyone who has worked hard their whole lives should now be treated badly just because they’re older. Should those who own their own homes be forced to sell to a younger person.

Schools closed in April and would have broken up the 3rd week of July, counting in the holidays they would have had during this time they’ve had about 8 weeks off of school - it’s not great but it is only 15% which can be easily caught up on. So although the blitz only lasted a few months so has this and people are already going on holiday and to the pub etc so it’s not too hard going.

No one likes lockdown and feels sorry for everyone who has missed out on leavers doos, list their jobs etc but it was seen as the lesser of 2 evils.

zaffa · 02/08/2020 21:29

@Jussayingisall

But this man is not an expert in epidemiology or a scientist specializing in pandemics. Nor does this appear to be peer reviewed research published in a recognized journal.
jasjas1973 · 02/08/2020 21:30

@Sunrise234 You are displaying the exact attitude that pisses off the young.
It's not just school, its uni life, its jobs, travel, parties, many of these things won't be repeatable... how do you have another graduation party when 75% of your cohort are scattered across the uk or the world?

Once Cummings was excused for his behavior, i saw a marked change in young people's response to CV, they realised "we aren't all in this together" at all and are now acting accordingly.

Bollss · 02/08/2020 21:33

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Equally we've now caused early deaths of around 60k cancer patients many of whom with the right treatment wouldn't have died in the next year or so. Many of them much younger than covid victims.

Where is this figure from? Our entire excess deaths is 60,000 so how have an additional 60,000 died from cancer?

Quite clearly they've not died yet, they're expected to.
Bollss · 02/08/2020 21:37

[quote jasjas1973]@Sunrise234 You are displaying the exact attitude that pisses off the young.
It's not just school, its uni life, its jobs, travel, parties, many of these things won't be repeatable... how do you have another graduation party when 75% of your cohort are scattered across the uk or the world?

Once Cummings was excused for his behavior, i saw a marked change in young people's response to CV, they realised "we aren't all in this together" at all and are now acting accordingly.[/quote]
Precisely. We're not all in it together at all. In fact I think this will push people further apart than ever

Sunrise234 · 02/08/2020 21:45

@jasjas1973 I work with teenagers so I am just expressing the opinions and actions that I observe first hand. I’m also in my late twenties myself so not classed as middle aged yet. I’m assuming you also work with teenagers to know what pisses them off so maybe we are in different parts of the country so there is a divide but I don’t think pitting the young against the old will do any good. I teach mine to respect their elders even if they are protesting for things like BLM I get them to do it in a respectful way. I can’t see how telling them an older persons life is less valuable than a younger persons would ever do any good.

Bollss · 02/08/2020 21:49

[quote Sunrise234]@jasjas1973 I work with teenagers so I am just expressing the opinions and actions that I observe first hand. I’m also in my late twenties myself so not classed as middle aged yet. I’m assuming you also work with teenagers to know what pisses them off so maybe we are in different parts of the country so there is a divide but I don’t think pitting the young against the old will do any good. I teach mine to respect their elders even if they are protesting for things like BLM I get them to do it in a respectful way. I can’t see how telling them an older persons life is less valuable than a younger persons would ever do any good.[/quote]
I teach mine to respect everyone who treats them with respect.

I don't teach them that one cause of death is more important than another.

Equally I will teach them when appropriate to question things they don't understand or don't necessarily agree with rather than blindly accepting it.

eeeyoresmiles · 02/08/2020 21:50

My favoured approach would have been throwing huge resources at protecting the vulnerable and otherwise letting the virus run its course alongside some measures to slow it e.g no mass gatherings inside , promoting hand washing, working from home if possible etc (I’m not arguing for the chaotic approach adopted in Brazil etc. We could have spent almost anything on protecting the shielded and it would have been cheaper than furlough. E.g we could have paid care workers extra to isolate themselves for certain periods. A short lockdown to build up nhs capacity may also have been justified.

I know you acknowledge there would be an economic cost to not having locked down (which is a rare acknowledgement so thank you!) but I think you're still hugely underestimating the size of the economic costs that would be incurred by just letting this particular virus spread through the population. It's not enough to protect the shielded - to survive doing that with a functioning society and economy we would need to protect everyone who might need hospitalisation - people who can't even be easily identified and many of whom are working in vital roles. Otherwise there would just be too many of them.

Sunrise234 · 02/08/2020 21:57

@TrustTheGeneGenie so is going to the pub more important than saving people’s lives? Why do we have the NHS if we don’t care about whether they can cope or have enough room/resources to cope?
Lockdown wasn’t put in place purposely to harm the under 20s.

Honestly I want to go on holiday, go swimming, go to the pub - I’ve never once felt angry at anyone older than me or someone who’s got cancer because it is their fault I can’t do those things. And I would worry about a generation that does feel that way.

jasjas1973 · 02/08/2020 21:59

@Sunrise234 Bit odd that someone in their late 20s would mention WW2, the blitz and the debt the young owe the old but there you go!

We need a new deal for the young, just as after WW2 the returning soldiers were given a new deal too, housing, jobs, apprenticeships, NHS, social welfare etc.

At the moment, its just take take take from the oldies.

eeeyoresmiles · 02/08/2020 22:02

Technically, none of us here are in a position to say for certain which economic cost, from lockdown or from just letting the virus spread, would definitively be the lesser or two evils, because to do that we'd need all sorts of data and numbers and models that we don't have access to. But it is certain that any choice which features the uncontrolled spread of a new disease, with a high hospitalisation rate, is economically dangerous by its very nature. The numbers would need to be very very convincing showing that this would be better economically, and that's without even allowing for the 'army taking away the bodies' scenarios, the total breakdown of healthcare and education and so on, that we'd be risking putting society through to that end. I haven't seen anything yet to convince me that that would be better economically.

Bollss · 02/08/2020 22:04

[quote Sunrise234]@TrustTheGeneGenie so is going to the pub more important than saving people’s lives? Why do we have the NHS if we don’t care about whether they can cope or have enough room/resources to cope?
Lockdown wasn’t put in place purposely to harm the under 20s.

Honestly I want to go on holiday, go swimming, go to the pub - I’ve never once felt angry at anyone older than me or someone who’s got cancer because it is their fault I can’t do those things. And I would worry about a generation that does feel that way.[/quote]
Where have I said that it is? Confused tbh I rarely go to the pub but I do recognise that pubs provide jobs for people, you know and those people need to house and feed themselves.

The NHS have got plenty of capacity right now. They are not turning away the elderly.

Excuse me but where have I said I am annoyed with people who are older than me or have cancer! Are you out of your mind?

I'm angry with the government, not the elderly. Jesus Christ on a bike. I'm your age and frankly I'm embarrassed.

Sunrise234 · 02/08/2020 22:09

@jasjas1973 why is it weird to talk about WW2 if I’m in my twenties?

I agree that we need cheaper housing etc for young people as it’s almost impossible to get on the housing ladder now but I don’t think that’s been made massively worse by COVID (yet).
I have heard that some universities will be doing remote learning from September and if it was me I would defer my place which could mess some young people’s plans up but I don’t think that is anyone’s fault apart from the virus itself.

Sunrise234 · 02/08/2020 22:12

@TrustTheGeneGenie where have I said you’ve said that?

I’m saying that pitting the young against the old is not a good idea. It is not the ‘oldies’ fault they can’t do these things.

jasjas1973 · 02/08/2020 22:16

@Sunrise234 Defer for 12 months? what if there is never a vaccine? or one in 4 years, what then?

We cannot govern on some random assumption there will a vaccine next year, the cost to the young is too great.

Already, Johnson has said that regular testing of staff/clients in care homes wont happen until the Autumn, promised to have started by early july.... so yet again, the young will be expected to pay the costs for this failure by Johnson.

mac12 · 02/08/2020 22:25

@jasjas1973 * Early on (March i think) i posted a thread asking why in the pandemics of 1957 and 1968, we never locked down at all, despite both Flu pandemics killing millions worldwide.

No one really answered the question then or since.*

It was influenza, people had some degree of immunity from prior strains of flu. This is new, limited immunity, long tail recovery in significant proportion of patients, unknown long term health impacts.

OP posts:
Sunrise234 · 02/08/2020 22:26

@jasjas1973 I would prefer to defer for 12 months than pay £9000 a year to learn online as I don’t think I would learn very well that way.

And with most viruses once you have it you build an immunity so you don’t get it again (hopefully) so we want healthy people to catch it slowly so they shouldn’t need a vaccination. I don’t know what people who are shielding will do though if they can’t have a vaccination for a year or more, will they have to give up their jobs? I know a few people who’ve said they wouldn’t want a vaccination anyway as it’s been rushed.

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