Pubs or kids?

[coffeeandllbd]

Whitty said we cannot have it all. Pubs are jobs. School is mental health.

I have a 13 year old struggling with lockdown. I would choose schools. My brother would choose pubs.

Who would you choose?

Never go to pubs so couldn't care less about them but I don't think it's either/or.

TableTime what kind of remote learning are you talking about?

Can you give examples of what’s good

""Remote learning is significantly less effective"

No, it's not."

You can't a 15 year old who is learning at sensory level, requires specialist practical equipment, in house therapies and 2:1 support, remotely.

Schools absolutely....

With a 13 year old yes he can stay home while I work but I won't be about to enforce homeschooling... it's a worst case for me!

Bout time we dropped our obsession with drinking and getting wasted anyway.

Unless you've done the study and can reliably say that the results are statistically significant in the scientific sense, then the statement that it's 'significantly less effective' doesn't hold.

Remote teaching can follow every pedagogical theory. Many teachers have been working really hard to apply thr concepts and adapt them, with no notice from the government. Many are now preparing so they another stint of remote teaching would be better still, and ready quickly.

If you've have qualified teacher status and practise delivering skills and knowledge to children on a daily basis, considering their prior learning, differentiating to scaffold and support, or stretch and challenge, take into consideration different learning styles, ask questions in the way you were trained to elicit deeper thinking and continue to provide feedback in a diagnostic way, the vast majority of children will still learn well and make progress.

My classroom doesn't allow space for me to remain 2m away from children at all times, so I'll likely catch (and pass on to thr other year groups) any germs they bring to school. With thirty two in there they can't all face away from each other. I can't circulate and pick up misconceptions in real time. I can't have personalised conversations with children about their learning across the whole classroom, disturbing others. The 'quarantine' of exercise books for 48 hours means my marking will not be as timely as it should, and more difficult for children to respond to.

I've been able to address all of those from my computer, but taking lots of time to communicate with each child, so going back isn't going to be necessarily better for learning.

I could attempt to have them in silence all day to speak to them. I could ask them to use their phones to photograph their work and email it to me while I hide behind my computer in thr corner of the room and type back to them. But I won't have time for everyone, and keeping track of them all will be difficult, when I'm running from room to room and sharing resources with other staff, in an environment that is categorically not covid secure.

I can't have a quiet conversation with a student who wants to talk about their problems at thr end or the lesson as I dash off. I can't see my tutor group to get ready for the day, as it's an unnecessary separate grouping. Assembly will be steamed to screens on different rooms.

Why would it be sensible to cram into one badly ventilated room for an hour at a time, with no masks or distance, before doinf the same withe four more groups in a day, to do what we've been doing from a distance even less effectively?

Unless you've done the study and can reliably say that the results are statistically significant in the scientific sense, then the statement that it's 'significantly less effective' doesn't hold.

Oh please.

I’ve seen how difficult it is for my 6 year old to concentrate on a 10 minute video sent out by his teacher.

I know how important ‘in person’ interaction with other children and his teacher are to him grasping concepts.

I understand how school based resources have been developed over the years to give him the best experience.

I can see how my friends’ child with significant SEN gets absolutely nothing out of remote teaching.

It’s obvious that practical subjects at secondary can’t be delivered to anything like the same standard remotely.

I know enough about the school experience to see that real time discussion, interaction with your peers views, questioning and clarifications are as important as the concept delivered.

Plenty of things don’t require studies for evaluation. Common sense is enough.

Unless you've done the study and can reliably say that the results are statistically significant in the scientific sense, then the statement that it's 'significantly less effective' doesn't hold.

Remote teaching can follow every pedagogical theory. Many teachers have been working really hard to apply thr concepts and adapt them, with no notice from the government. Many are now preparing so they another stint of remote teaching would be better still, and ready quickly.

If you've have qualified teacher status and practise delivering skills and knowledge to children on a daily basis, considering their prior learning, differentiating to scaffold and support, or stretch and challenge, take into consideration different learning styles, ask questions in the way you were trained to elicit deeper thinking and continue to provide feedback in a diagnostic way, the vast majority of children will still learn well and make progress

Equally without a study you can’t say it is, but that’s by the by the rest of the post was interesting to read.

I welcome a dedicated teacher doing online in the way you describe. This means the system that was in place with half children without any resource because teacher time was elsewhere (KW / other year group) will have to end.

I appreciate a teacher who wants to do the best they can online, I do have concerns about screen time as it breeds lethargy in and of itself so this needs to be mitigated.

I see you've focussed only on quoting me when I directly disagreed with your ridiculous assertion, @LaurieMarlow Why've you ignore everything else I said about learning, but still replied?

I’ve seen how difficult it is for my 6 year old to concentrate on a 10 minute video sent out by his teacher.

This is anecdotal and just your six year old. I'd wager that he probably also finds it difficult to sit still and listen to his teacher for ten minutes at school. You're just not there and don't see that children need to struggle somewhat in order to grasp something new, or that progress isn't constant, but over time. There is nothing wrong with children learning to pay attention, become independent or finding learning a challenge.

There will be plenty of challenges to engagement and behaviour for learning when schools go back, probably making it difficult for some children to concentrate, and distancing making it impossible for teachers to directly intervene or control all the conditions in the ways they normally would (where learning wouldn't look or be perfect anyway!)

It can be the environment. I see the effect of learning via screen on teen ds. It is different to in school. There’s no mistake on that, he is more motivated and receptive in the class.

Even adults find constant zoom meetings different and mentally draining and that us just talking not learning which is an active engaged process.

Schools, without a shadow of a doubt

This is anecdotal and just your six year old. I'd wager that he probably also finds it difficult to sit still and listen to his teacher for ten minutes at school.

No. Feedback from his teacher is very good. He’s a bright and engaged child. But he is six.

A quick trawl on here will show many, many examples of young children for whom even the best ‘real time’ teaching online is difficult for them to engage with.

If you’re really trying to argue that remote teaching is just as effective for the under eights, I’d be a bit concerned about your general approach to the profession frankly.

Even in the very best scenario, remote teaching involves youngsters by themselves, in front of a screen, for hours on end. I don’t see how anyone can argue that’s preferable really.

Equally without a study you can’t say it is. Of course, @MarshaBradyo, I agree. I just don't think saying it's always less effective, implying it's substandard as a matter of course, is useful. And I don't think that many parents ever really questioned what goes on in classrooms normally, or know the ways it will still have to be different from the norm when we go back.

Remote learning won't be great for every child, but not is mainstream schooling. Extreme examples where children are usually allocated additional support obviously need to be provided for, but most children can continue to learn well, and there are the few examples at the other end of the continuum where children have thrived and it's been better for them.

Neither extreme is enough of an argument to change everything for everyone, especially if it makes everyone more unsafe and offers little educational benefit.

For what it's worth, if we could open and offer a mix of face to face and remote learning, I think this would be the best of both worlds, but so far it's not what the government have allowed schools to plan for.

If we had been, more schools would have had chance to deliver a service like I described, rather than the poor quality it seems some families have experienced in comparison. I can only assume this was because the government said the national curriculum was suspended, as teachers where I work were expected to emulate the normal learning process as best as possible.

Practical science will not be happening in most schools if they follow the guidance - insufficient equipment, insufficient time to allow suitable preparation or cleaning. I can’t imagine much practical food tech or dt being within guidance either.

Schools. I think children have waited long enough.

I'm not a drinker though so pubs reopening has meant nothing to me!

TableTime I think one big barrier for many schools is that teaching resource was not available for half the school as it was redirected to KW or in June 1 when more children went in. Although there should have been more resource pre June 1 so I’m not sure why it was uniformly almost non existent for the year groups excluded.

Half face to face and half remote - Sounds good but don’t you still require double the number of teachers? Unless it’s still full size classes when face to face?

Personally I saw the marked difference when yr10 got some good school time in class. He was lagging and changed that day,. Seeing friends, learning not in a screen, he cared less that there were signs everywhere and systems in place. Barely noticed it and actually didn’t SD at lunch, none of them did.

If I had the choice I’d send him back, but if others wanted not to could continue with home learning.

@CarrieBlue

Practical science will not be happening in most schools if they follow the guidance - insufficient equipment, insufficient time to allow suitable preparation or cleaning. I can’t imagine much practical food tech or dt being within guidance either.

And all the goggles have been donated to the local hospital. Even if we had money to replace them, you can't buy them anywhere at the moment.

Even in the very best scenario, remote teaching involves youngsters by themselves, in front of a screen, for hours on end. I don’t see how anyone can argue that’s preferable really.

I don't think independent learning, or normal homework, which consolidates classroom learning, or introduces a new concept, needs to be exclusivey online or in front of a screen. Remote learning (as in literally just from a different place, only supported by technology, rather than relying on it) doesn't need to be less effective. Coupled with face to face interaction, it actually has benefits.

For example when I tutor students one to one, we spend the hour's session on explaining, discussing, reading, questioning and looking at model responses and success criteria. It's a better use of the time the parent is paying me for the child to receive that, than to sit and write on a piece of paper, in silence, while I supervise. I'll expect them to do 45-60 mins of written work/exam style essay on their own to send me, to show what they've learned and for me to mark ready for next time.

And in the context of safety and health, if some distance learning means fewer contacts and less transmission, it seems an obvious answer.

Also on KW etc this is no longer a good option. I understand many schools did not teach these groups, yet teachers were used.

It’s bad for everyone. At least if teaching happened equally for all
students we wouldn’t be wasting something as precious as teaching time which is severely impacted right now.

Schools because of education. Simple.

For example when I tutor students one to one, we spend the hour's session on explaining, discussing, reading, questioning and looking at model responses and success criteria. It's a better use of the time the parent is paying me for the child to receive that, than to sit and write on a piece of paper, in silence, while I supervise

That’s absolutely fine as homework, but spending half their time like that, working alone just strikes me as so lonely. Isolation has already caused huge issues for our teens, we need less of that, not more.

And in the context of safety and health, if some distance learning means fewer contacts and less transmission, it seems an obvious answer.

But parents need to work, making it impossible for primary. Even for secondary, are people really happy to leave 11 year olds home alone for the working day? I have younger children, but I can’t imagine it.

Also on KW etc this is no longer a good option.

Yup. This absolutely can’t continue.

LegoMaus Massive amount of tax paid by pubs and some people will riot if they can’t go out and drink. Parents won’t riot if schools don’t open

So you want to appease the mob?

Any man, and yes it usually is always a man, who would riot because they can't go to the pub is pathetic and should not be pandered to

TotorosFurryBehind If Schools do not reopen, the impact on women's equality will be enormous

Absolutely and it's getting pushed to the side just how badly many women and children are being affected by this crisis .

I can remember early in the lockdown a long discussion on Sky news about how football fans, grown men, are 'upset' because stadiums closed and how 'we must keep the fans occupied'. I remember thinking, what are they now, children?

Cases are rising now, in summer. If we leave everything open that's already open and then open schools on top, it will be a recipe for disaster over winter.

Schools don't stay open just because you say they should. Schools need staff. When staff go off, you cannot cope shorthanded in a school. A nurse can cut down the time they give each patient. They can see more patients by working overtime. They can work through their breaks. A teacher cannot teach more children by cutting lesson time. They cannot work later to teach more children. They can't fit in their colleague's class by giving up their break. It is not a job where you can cover for absent staff, other than with an alternative member of staff. If too many nurses go off, the quality of care deteriorates, but beds remain full. If too many teachers go off, children get sent home. It's not that teachers are special, it's the different nature of the job.

In order to keep schools open, we have to keep teachers healthy. If cases are rising, teachers (and everyone else) will get sick in larger and larger numbers. Children will get sent home. The only way to keep children in schools is to stop cases from rising. They are already rising. Schools being open will cause additional rises in cases because children can be infected and can infect others. To keep schools open, we need to close down elsewhere.

Obviously schools. My A level daughter simply just can’t be taught A levels from PowerPoint despite best efforts of her teachers and I am getting sick of comments which say it’s only a few months if their lives or we don’t want to look after our kids

But given that I think all areas Of hospitality Employ one third of workers then it’s not that simple. All areas would need more painful compromise. Eg for example workers bein g encouraged to stay at home again if they can, secondary children wearing masks, more strictly enforced social distancing in pubs, extension Of furlough For some sectors

. There is no easy way to deal with this. I would like to think that track and trace data would inform as to which actions would be most effective.......

Schools, if my DS cannot get back into school in September i think I will have to leave my job as I can't work and homeschool him at the same time and he really needs help to focus on his work