School re-opening under threat - thread 2

[DomDoesWotHeWants]

First thread here -

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/3981349-School-re-opening-under-threat?msgid=98768334

It seems to me that Johnson is creeping towards masks in schools come September, given that he's extended the paces they have to be worn.

Do teachers think that's enough?

The government has actually wasted over £1billion on PPE that was never delivered including contracts to a company without any assets, income ore employees and a sweet wholesaler! Imagine if that had been spent on facilitating blended learning.

I’m not trying to be awkward or difficult here but a question. Our nursery and many others I know have gone back with no social distancing (for the children, I assume the adults are trying where they can) and I’ve not heard of any outbreaks/closures, even though they are at almost full capacity. Anyone seen any data on this?

I’m also not convinced whatsoever that young children don’t spread it. They breathe, sneeze, cough etc just like everyone else

Agree. www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2020/07/31/new-evidence-suggests-young-children-spread-covid-19-more-efficiently-than-adults/

www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/health/coronavirus/nursery-centre-covid-19-outbreak-assures-people-there-no-risk-wider-public-milton-keynes-2895764

The media doesn't tend to report them. There have been many small outbreaks . They are reported in a weekly surveillance report from PHE which reports any outbreak, e.g. also norovirus.

The biggest one I know of was 23 people connected to a nursery in MK.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-covid-19-surveillance-reports

Report dated 23rd July (page 11), shows 193 outbreaks in educational settings in the previous 4 weeks, which presumably includes nurseries. Schools were closed by 23rd July.

In the week after that, according to report for week 31, there were 23 outbreaks in educational settings. Presumably that's mostly in nurseries, since very few other educational settings are open.

@tappitytaptap

I’m not trying to be awkward or difficult here but a question. Our nursery and many others I know have gone back with no social distancing (for the children, I assume the adults are trying where they can) and I’ve not heard of any outbreaks/closures, even though they are at almost full capacity. Anyone seen any data on this?

My friend works in a nursery-she says they are in strict bubbles, temperature checks and no mixing of adults at all. That’s pretty much the sensible conditions schools were working in through lockdown and June/July.

I feel it’s unlikely that a full time return to normal for all children 4-18, will look anywhere near as safe under the current proposed government guidelines.

Flags - 7 of my year 6 girls had started their periods and two of the boys had broken voices and facial hair. Puberty isstarting earlier and earlier!

[quote labyrinthloafer]@morfin that has been demonstrated to be untrue, older teens spread it as much as anyone.

I'm also depressed @mrshoho, in my opinion the policy is 'we want schools to be able to open, so we will pretend everything is fine' and a significant portion of the UK population is on that page too.[/quote]
I know but that Lancet article is working on the premise that under 20's spread it half as much as over 20's. That is very worrying.

My daughter has a temp job at a nursery and bubbles are really strict. However she says it’s pointless as all the mummies stop for a good gossip as kids runaround the car park at pickup! The nursery managers ask mums to pick up and go but they get ignored.

Meanwhile the dads grab and dash!

This New York Times article is an interesting read. The main headline is about a school having to close on the first day it opened as a covid positive student came to school, but it also outlines the different strategies in different states re closure.

Here’s New York’s:

One or two confirmed cases in a single classroom would require those classes to close for 14 days, with all students and staff members ordered to quarantine. The rest of the school would continue to operate, but if two or more people in different classrooms in the same school tested positive, the entire building would close for an investigation, and might not reopen for two weeks depending on the results

(The italics are mine. UK teachers, iirc not allowed to quarantine even if there are positive cases in any of their bubbles. Please do correct me if I’m wrong though!)

www.nytimes.com/2020/08/01/us/schools-reopening-indiana-coronavirus.html

@StaffAssociationRepresentative

My daughter has a temp job at a nursery and bubbles are really strict. However she says it’s pointless as all the mummies stop for a good gossip as kids runaround the car park at pickup! The nursery managers ask mums to pick up and go but they get ignored.

Meanwhile the dads grab and dash!

Similar to our school. Before we broke up for the summer groups were small, and parents / carers had to queue in different zones to collect from different bubbles. Then when they'd left school lots of parents would hang around chatting on the street, letting children from different bubbles mix. In addition to this the children would also be full of stories after the weekend about how they'd had friends over, had a sleepover with another friend, went to this friends house who didn't go to our school and so on.

UK teachers, iirc not allowed to quarantine even if there are positive cases in any of their bubbles

But that's against the rules the rest are following surely? Insane.

Of course UK teachers are required to quarantine if there is a case in their bubble. That is the whole point of bubbles, to limit exposure. And since one teacher only teaches one bubble so what would be the point of them not quaratining when the children were off?As well as the fact that they might be infected and so might be ill anyway.

Not in secondary!

since one teacher only teaches one bubble

I think you need to read the guidelines again...

@Ontopofthesunset

Of course UK teachers are required to quarantine if there is a case in their bubble. That is the whole point of bubbles, to limit exposure. And since one teacher only teaches one bubble so what would be the point of them not quaratining when the children were off?As well as the fact that they might be infected and so might be ill anyway.

This might be true for primary. but not secondary.

I teach every bubble bar one. That's a bubble of about 1600.

Staff can't isolate when a bubble closes, because then there wouldn't be enough staff to teach the other bubbles (since most teachers teach most years). This is one of the ways in which the secondary guidance is utterly dismal.

Ontopofthesunset

Secondary school year groups are the whole year.

Secondary teachers will still be teaching multiple year groups.

Have you not figured this out yet?

@Ontopofthesunset

Of course UK teachers are required to quarantine if there is a case in their bubble. That is the whole point of bubbles, to limit exposure. And since one teacher only teaches one bubble so what would be the point of them not quaratining when the children were off?As well as the fact that they might be infected and so might be ill anyway.

Teachers only teach one bubble?! Have you actually read the guidance?

We are in year group ‘bubbles’ in my primary-I am with numerous classes and all teachers can go across all bubbles. As can visitors, coaches, PPA cover, SLT, volunteers etc etc. Supply teachers will be working across huge numbers of children.

I’m sure my secondary colleagues will enlighten you as to how many classes they will be teaching in a week!

What seems to be happening is, we are being told that social distancing is happening in schools and we have to keep 2m away from all children. This obviously isn’t possible due to the number of pupils and the size of the classrooms.

Oh, sorry, I was talking about up till now and, yes, my focus is on primary. I realise there is a big difference in secondary and it is much less easy to minimise contact, and I admit I haven't read the full secondary guidance.

Secondary school (mega) bubbles will be by year group in the main. Are some teachers really going to be crossing into other year groups as well?

@Ontopofthesunset

Of course UK teachers are required to quarantine if there is a case in their bubble. That is the whole point of bubbles, to limit exposure. And since one teacher only teaches one bubble so what would be the point of them not quaratining when the children were off?As well as the fact that they might be infected and so might be ill anyway.

This makes no sense in secondary. Teachers will cross bubbles, and apparently stay back from the kids 'where possible'.

My first day back, I'll see a class of year 11, then 8, then 10, then 9, then 7. If year 8 are isolated, I'll still be needed thr next day for thr other classes. And I could pass anything I caught amongst them all, and they in turn could pass to anyone else in their own year group lunch, or anyone nearby on the bus home. That's a lot of families, including vulnerable adults, who could pick it up and pass it on in thr community, even after the original case and the majority (i.e. Not me!) of their likeliest contacts were isolated.

It just has to be recognised that 240 teenagers plus staff moving between groups is not a "bubble".

@mrshoho

Secondary school (mega) bubbles will be by year group in the main. Are some teachers really going to be crossing into other year groups as well?

I’ll be teaching groups in year 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11. And possibly 12. We have to cross year groups, otherwise there aren’t enough teachers to teach all the groups. We have 1300 students, 6 - 8 sets per year group..

@mrshoho

Secondary school (mega) bubbles will be by year group in the main. Are some teachers really going to be crossing into other year groups as well?

Of course they are. In many schools there just aren't enough teachers to remain with a single year group.

I teach every year group (aka bubbles) in my secondary school bar one as well. It is a huge school with over 2000 students. And only 2 female staff toilets with zero ventilation for the entire staff incidentally....
In my classroom last year I had to have fold up exam desks to accommodate everyone and they had to be folded to open the door and let students out.
There is no way of adequate ventilation or safe distancing in most classrooms, and we will not be allowed to wear masks. Not will we be allowed to self isolate if there is a positive case in one of our classes
Parents need to realise how huge our class sizes are compared to other countries, and how small our classrooms are! Not to mention how little non contact time we also get in comparison....