School re-opening under threat - thread 2

[DomDoesWotHeWants]

First thread here -

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/3981349-School-re-opening-under-threat?msgid=98768334

It seems to me that Johnson is creeping towards masks in schools come September, given that he's extended the paces they have to be worn.

Do teachers think that's enough?

@mrshoho

To the secondary teachers on here, please can I ask are your schools using different entrances for year groups and staggered start/finish times? Also stopping breaks and reducing length of lunch time? Both my kid's schools are but they are relatively small schools with no year 12/13 provision. I'm not saying these measures are going to be effective at all but just interested to know if they are unusual. I can already see problems with siblings in different year groups waiting for each other etc.

I teach at a rural school with about 1000 pupils. We are doing separate entrances (Y12/13 will be shared), but not staggered starts/finishes because of timings with busses/parent drop off/pick up.

We will have break as normal and lunch as normal, with each year group getting a 15 minute slot to use the canteen. Breaks and lunches will be separate for each year group mostly, but there may be some "crossing" of students on the way to and from each breaktime.

If we had shorter breaks and lunches, there would be no real way to get all the children through the canteen- so we would have to ask all parents to provide a packed lunch, which SLT are not keen to do. Even the 15 minute slots will be pushing it.

The real issue is that all teachers will be teaching multiple year groups, bubbles will mix on busses, and of course siblings will mix at home, friends in different year groups on the way to and from school and so on.

We will have separate toilets and "areas" of the school for each year group, and students will stay in their area (although move between rooms depending on their set) with teachers going to students. However, at the start and end of the day and at break/lunch, students may still end up mixing with other bubbles in the corridor.

We also have no spare toilets, so if any end up out of order then children from different bubbles will be sharing toilets.

Just catching up on the posts. Thank you all. You have to deal with all that and we don't even know if the test track and trace will be sufficient. It is going to be a nightmare I fear.

I think they are relying on the antibody test. That apparently will be ready just before the next big announcement for education. Apparently, within 20 you get results all at home.

Suppose if these work, they will be sending them out en masse to schools as well as homes.

They won't get track and trace to work properly simply because a lot of companies aren't happy with the data mining the government want to do. If it wasn't because of this, we could have had trace and trace implemented back in March.

*within 20 minutes

Suppose if these work, they will be sending them out en masse to schools as well as homes.

Meh, Just another job for the teachers to do.

Here is a better idea.

In order for the pupils to be sent to school all pupils (teachers and staff) have to have the test done before going to school.

@FrippEnos

Suppose if these work, they will be sending them out en masse to schools as well as homes.

Meh, Just another job for the teachers to do.

Here is a better idea.

In order for the pupils to be sent to school all pupils (teachers and staff) have to have the test done before going to school.

That assumes everyone is honest.

If they were, kids wouldn't be dosed with calpol before they are sent to school

Germany - useful test case ?

Schools returned ft yesterday (Monday) in the German state of Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania
(the 16 states have always had staggered school holidays, with returns from early August - early Sept)

It's a sparsely populated state in NE Germany and had comparatively few infections and deaths
Population only1.6 million, 880 cases and 20 deaths, with currently 2 cases /100,000 compared to 5/100,000 for Germany as a whole

Only 150,000 pupils, 563 schools and 13,000 teachers - 400 of whom are working from home as they are vulnerable

Regular deep cleaning is easier to organise, because nearly all German schools are only open 8am - 1 or 2pm, no lunch.

If ft isn't possible later on, the minimum plan is to have 4-5 hours daily teaching, Mon-Fri
but they are starting with a full plan, including sport and music

. Masks are optional for staff & pupils
. Frequent handwashing mandatory for everyone, strict hygeine measures
. Students told to avoid touching stair banisters (good abs training )
. There are bubbles, but that's hundreds of pupils in secondary school
. Extra money been given by government for disinfectant, deep cleaning, laptops for home, staff training etc
. Teachers have been trained in online teaching and given equipment, in case of closures and also to teach the most vulnerable students at home.
. Test, track & trace systems have worked well in Germany, right from February, so that will help
. Childcare has been running since 2 June

If / when there are infections, it will be the local health authority who decide what happens, not the school head,
e.g. whether to quarantine the entire school or just a bubble

The three important things with Germany - small classes, lower community case level, functioning track and trace.

In Germany, we're still all watching that small state:

if ft school doesn't work there, it won't work anywhere,

Hopefully it will and we'll also gain knowledge of what works and whether some measures are too impractical / ignored

Extra money been given by government for disinfectant, deep cleaning, laptops for home, staff training etc

Lucky them

I'm confused by this:

If ft isn't possible later on, the minimum plan is to have 4-5 hours daily teaching, Mon-Fri but they are starting with a full plan, including sport and music

Earlier you said they were in 8-1 so only 5 hours anyway? Or by daily teaching do you mean online daily teaching?

Sorry if I'm being dense, haven't had my early morning infusion of caffeine yet.

Yes well we have all noticed that the government has stopped mentioning or saying they are taking inspiration form other countries! I have moved from rolling my eyes when a government minister said 'take Denmark' to wishing they would say ' what we are doing is copying the German model of funding and planning'...

My kids education is important but if they do have to take a year out to handle a pandemic in which tens of thousands are going to die then that’s a no brainer. We are potentially looking at a much bigger wave this winter... that’s over 100,000 dead. People are forgetting to step back and get things into context. There’s a lot of me me me going on.

I know 3 people directly affected by this virus and interestingly they and their loved ones are taking it far more seriously than most others I know, because they’ve seen how bad this really is. The majority of the population have become totally desensitised to this and are frustrated and desperate to get back to normal life regardless of the cost. It’s like watching a film from a far and unfortunately this also is just part of how we are wired.

There IS proof that children spread this virus (and certainly that a select few can die from it), yes it looks as though their transmission rate is lower than an adults but when you take millions of children’s and shove them all back in school at the same time lower isn’t going to seem that low anymore, that’s just common sense and basic math.

I think this is all creating a divide between parents and teachers which is sad, I really feel for the teachers and agree that there’s no way in hell I would want to be forced into a room this winter with 30 other households. It’s not fair that they’re being put in this position or that parents expect this to be okay.

The government have been off the mark with every decsison throughout this pandemic and there’s no doubt that ploughing ahead and sending everyone back to school in September is going to be their worst decision yet, if people think this isn’t going to be the tipping point into an astronomical second wave then they haven’t been following the science enough to understand how this works.

@canigooutyet

I think they are relying on the antibody test. That apparently will be ready just before the next big announcement for education. Apparently, within 20 you get results all at home.

Suppose if these work, they will be sending them out en masse to schools as well as homes.

They won't get track and trace to work properly simply because a lot of companies aren't happy with the data mining the government want to do. If it wasn't because of this, we could have had trace and trace implemented back in March.

But all an antibody test really proves is that you have had coronavirus in the past- and there's definitely evidence that people do get ill a second time.

And what about those who don't have antibodies?

Maybe I am just being thick, but I don't actually see how this will help?

@Beawillalwaysbetopdog

I'm confused by this:

If ft isn't possible later on, the minimum plan is to have 4-5 hours daily teaching, Mon-Fri but they are starting with a full plan, including sport and music

Earlier you said they were in 8-1 so only 5 hours anyway? Or by daily teaching do you mean online daily teaching?

Sorry if I'm being dense, haven't had my early morning infusion of caffeine yet.

... This was in the press statement The minimum plan is that the day will be shortened by 1-2 hours, no more but I didn't hear the details

Online teaching could make up the remaining 1-2 hours;
reportedly worked quite well May-June and would be more organised now
A state spokesman said they saw online learning as being for repetition and exercises, not teaching new things

Additionally, maybe split each class and have a morning shift and a day shift, say with supervisors for the first and / or last hours, with teachers maybe paid for an extra hour overtime

"I think they are relying on the antibody test. That apparently will be ready just before the next big announcement for education. Apparently, within 20 you get results all at home."

The regular ONS & PHE UK serology surveys indicate that only about 7% of the population have antibodies
May well be lower for kids, as they are more likely to use T cells to fight the virus
I don't know whether there is any quick test to include this

However, we are still talking about probably maximum 10% of detectable immunity
So not much relevance for the great majority of students & staff

We've no way of detecting what proportion of the population has "natural" immunity whether via other Coronaviruses ot any other means

"We have to go back quite a long time to find a disease that was as lethal and easily transmitted and left a trial of chronically ill people in its wake. Maybe the so-called sweating sickness of the 15th century, which might have been a hantavirus."

????

Are you kidding me?

TB, polio, diphtheria, meningitis, smallpox, novel influenza, typhoid.... All big killers into the 20th century.

I'm not dismissing the fatality rate of COVID19 (which is high by modern rather pampered standards), but it's pretty feeble compared with those horrors.

And a large part of the reason why COVID19's fatality rate is as high as it is, is because people aren't dying of the abovementioned horrors any more, meaning that we have built up a huge number of very elderly people in our population.

@mrshoho

To the secondary teachers on here, please can I ask are your schools using different entrances for year groups and staggered start/finish times? Also stopping breaks and reducing length of lunch time? Both my kid's schools are but they are relatively small schools with no year 12/13 provision. I'm not saying these measures are going to be effective at all but just interested to know if they are unusual. I can already see problems with siblings in different year groups waiting for each other etc.

No.

We're doing 'no hanging about in the mornings'. Registration rooms open 15 mins early (just realised that means no AM duty for me), straight there when they arrive.

Staggered break and lunch 7+8 and 9+10+11 with desperate areas for each year group (cafe split in two and a 'food cart' for KS4).

KS3 are going to leave 10 mins early to minimise stampede at home time (though actually I think this contravenes government guidelines?)

Also:
One way system
Masks optional
Hand san for every classroom
Allowed (one by one) to toilet at start of lesson if they couldn't go at break due to SD
Wipes for desks between groups
No collecting books (so teachers don't pop bubbles through surface contact)
Online HW submission and marking (as per lockdown)
No sharing equipment
Glue and scissors added to equipment list
Lots of teacher prep to minimise use of textbooks (quarantined for 24 hours after use if used) mid-lesson handouts, etc
No group work (pairs with person on same desk allowed)
Only one child out of seat at a time
Pedal operated lidded bin for all classrooms
Extra cleaners/cleaning hours
Clear desks at end of day for cleaning

Sorry, that was no to desperate entrances! Yes to staggered breaks.

German state of Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania
If it isn't possible later on, the minimum plan is to have 4-5 hours daily teaching, Mon-Fri but they are starting with a full plan, including sport and music.

The minimum plan is 4-5 hours per week;

"If regular classes Monday through Friday can't be done, the authorities want students to get at least four to five hours' schooling every week. Even music and sports are back on the curriculum."

Short video here;
www.dw.com/en/german-schools-reopen-despite-coronavirus/a-54415687

I have no idea what the antibody test will proof tbh. Can just imagine someone from government saying everything will be fine because schools will be supplied with tests. Some bollocks spun about this along with the rest of the guidance will protect those non existing bubbles and will keep schools open.

My 4 children and I all have separate staggered starting and finishing times. It's going to be fun trying to work it out. We are an hour apart morning and finish. 🤪

@Kitcat122

My 4 children and I all have separate staggered starting and finishing times. It's going to be fun trying to work it out. We are an hour apart morning and finish. 🤪

Staggered times are going to be a logistical nightmare for so many people. And many will be "forced" to break those "bubbles" and people will be taking a number of kids from different households to school.

When mine were in primary, for shared drops, playdates etc we had 4 households involved from parents to older teen siblings. 15 primary/younger between us, 7 adults, 3 teens and not all in the same year never mind school or work places. If it was now, we would have to do this for us to work. 3 of us worked in schools!!

"The minimum plan is 4-5 hours per week;"

Maybe that's plan D

The plans B & C I heard - for my area at least - are to split each class,
to have either daily (slightly shorter) morning & afternoon sessions in school
or 2 days per week
with online lessons to make up the full hours