School re-opening under threat - thread 2

[DomDoesWotHeWants]

First thread here -

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/3981349-School-re-opening-under-threat?msgid=98768334

It seems to me that Johnson is creeping towards masks in schools come September, given that he's extended the paces they have to be worn.

Do teachers think that's enough?

How does anyone actually comprehend this to be acceptable. It is madness! @WhyNotMe40 that sounds horrendous.

@mrshoho

Secondary school (mega) bubbles will be by year group in the main. Are some teachers really going to be crossing into other year groups as well?

Not ‘some’ teachers, I would imagine virtually all teachers.

@mrshoho

How does anyone actually comprehend this to be acceptable. It is madness! *@WhyNotMe40* that sounds horrendous.

It is utterly bonkers.

However, the minute teaching unions point this out, they are vilified in the press as being the ‘Marxist unions blocking the workshy teachers’ returning to work’.

Yeah we are just grumbling workshy teachers

@mrshoho

How does anyone actually comprehend this to be acceptable. It is madness! *@WhyNotMe40* that sounds horrendous.

I don't think some people want to comprehend the realities of the situation. They see the media outrage about teachers refusing to go back to work, and disregard the genuine worries school staff have.

Instead of listening to the concerns, many choose to accept the narrative that any and all complaining is teachers just moaning, being workshy and wanting even more time off.

My dd's secondary is less than half the size of @WhyNotMe40. They have sent a 5 page letter of their plans including moving to a 2 week timetable and only 3 (extra long) lessons a day to keep teachers within year groups. I thought their plans were bad enough!

I agree.

I'd have a lot more respect for the government if they scrapped the current guidance for secondary and admitted it was a risk to be back as normal but the benefits of education / socialisation / mental health etc made it an essential service.

All the guidance does is reassure some people who probably haven't read it properly and add to my workload / increase my stress. It overs no protection whatsoever in terms of mitigating spread.

Bubbles do not work at secondary school - your bubble is the whole school of 1200 kids and over 100 staff.

@mrshoho

I agree.

sorry that was to @Ickabog. I work in a very small special needs school and really despair at the vilification towards teachers and schools.

I teach 4 years groups, I am a Head of House, I will be expected to do break duty (whole school), lunch duty ( whole school).

I have to plan my loo trips in advance as female staff toilets are not in every building!

How I envy office workers!

Don't forget duties as well. I will be with another member of staff getting 400 pupils on to a bus twice a week, each one passing me by at close proximity.

The duties are going to be quite interesting because even though we can split up the year groups, morning duty and afterschool duty means that anyone on duty will be mixing with the entire school cohort.

And this doesn't even come close to what will happen at lesson change over.

To the secondary teachers on here, please can I ask are your schools using different entrances for year groups and staggered start/finish times? Also stopping breaks and reducing length of lunch time? Both my kid's schools are but they are relatively small schools with no year 12/13 provision. I'm not saying these measures are going to be effective at all but just interested to know if they are unusual. I can already see problems with siblings in different year groups waiting for each other etc.

Sort of : but so many of ours come on the bus, the staggered starts are rendered pointless really. Different entrances , yes, but no way of enforcing it.

Break ahs been increased and lunch time decreased (not popular!) No staggered finish time , again because buses.

@Ontopofthesunset

Of course UK teachers are required to quarantine if there is a case in their bubble. That is the whole point of bubbles, to limit exposure. And since one teacher only teaches one bubble so what would be the point of them not quaratining when the children were off?As well as the fact that they might be infected and so might be ill anyway.

This isn't true for primary, either.

The current guidance states that if a child tests positive, it is ONLY those who are 'direct close contacts' (within 1 m face to face) or 'proximity contacts' (within 1-2 metres for over 15 minutes) who have to isolate.

So if a child in the front row of my classroom tests positive, i should be asked to quarantine. However, if they are elsewhere in the classroom, I just carry on as normal.....

However, it does say that this is subject to the guidance of the health protection team, who I would hope would apply a more risk-averse - and sensible - approach.

Reference:
www.gov.uk/government/publications/actions-for-schools-during-the-coronavirus-outbreak/guidance-for-full-opening-schools#section-5-contingency-planning-for-outbreaks

I should clarify - this is not the 'current' guidance, but the guidance that is in force from September. it is very different from the guidance for limited opening, which was very much more along the lines of '1 case, bubble closes', and is also different from the first version of the September guidance, which was '1 case, carry on, 2 cases, bubble closes'

[I think the '2 cases' idea was scrapped - in one of those midnight rewriting-of-history-by-overwriting-the-document gov.uk sweeps - when they realised how big the bubbles were going to be]

@mrshoho

To the secondary teachers on here, please can I ask are your schools using different entrances for year groups and staggered start/finish times? Also stopping breaks and reducing length of lunch time? Both my kid's schools are but they are relatively small schools with no year 12/13 provision. I'm not saying these measures are going to be effective at all but just interested to know if they are unusual. I can already see problems with siblings in different year groups waiting for each other etc.

We haven’t had confirmation but basically no. We have about 1200 students, most of which travel on public transport (buses and trains). I don’t think we can stagger starts as some can only get there at whatever time their bus/train arrives.

We have three entrances I think students will come in their nearest entrance - don’t know what they will then do. There isn’t anywhere to put them safely.

Our school only has one entrance to the grounds. One entrance and one exit to some blocks, and some where the entrance is also the exit.
No staggered starts due to buses, theoretically staggered finishes but buses.....? No change to lunch and break but they are supposed to be zoned - which means more duties meaning no loo breaks. Which is a problem for me when I'm on my period.... And again there are only 2 female staff loos in the entire school which are in the same room. Not 2 female staff toilet blocks. 2 actual loos. Have to queue already!

@cantkeepawayforever

[I think the '2 cases' idea was scrapped - in one of those midnight rewriting-of-history-by-overwriting-the-document gov.uk sweeps - when they realised how big the bubbles were going to be]

What are they saying now about bubbles closing-how many cases before it closes?

What are they saying now about bubbles closing-how many cases before it closes?

There isn't a set number which would close the entire bubble, this is the guidance for 2 or more confirmed cases within 14 days.

If schools have two or more confirmed cases within 14 days, or an overall rise in sickness absence where coronavirus (COVID-19) is suspected, they may have an outbreak, and must continue to work with their local health protection team who will be able to advise if additional action is required.

In some cases, health protection teams may recommend that a larger number of other pupils self-isolate at home as a precautionary measure – perhaps the whole site or year group. If schools are implementing controls from this list, addressing the risks they have identified and therefore reducing transmission risks, whole school closure based on cases within the school will not generally be necessary, and should not be considered except on the advice of health protection teams.

@Ickabog

What are they saying now about bubbles closing-how many cases before it closes?

There isn't a set number which would close the entire bubble, this is the guidance for 2 or more confirmed cases within 14 days.

If schools have two or more confirmed cases within 14 days, or an overall rise in sickness absence where coronavirus (COVID-19) is suspected, they may have an outbreak, and must continue to work with their local health protection team who will be able to advise if additional action is required.

In some cases, health protection teams may recommend that a larger number of other pupils self-isolate at home as a precautionary measure – perhaps the whole site or year group. If schools are implementing controls from this list, addressing the risks they have identified and therefore reducing transmission risks, whole school closure based on cases within the school will not generally be necessary, and should not be considered except on the advice of health protection teams.

It's a fucking joke.

@Ickabog

That’s crazy! It should be the whole bubble (class or year).

@mrshoho

To the secondary teachers on here, please can I ask are your schools using different entrances for year groups and staggered start/finish times? Also stopping breaks and reducing length of lunch time? Both my kid's schools are but they are relatively small schools with no year 12/13 provision. I'm not saying these measures are going to be effective at all but just interested to know if they are unusual. I can already see problems with siblings in different year groups waiting for each other etc.

Not a teacher School my ds goes to, around 1700 pupils, 2 ways in/out of the building. No staggering as yet, but expect more updates as they receive them.

Realistically one person positive and the whole school is at risk. Old building and the school will be one bubble. Like many secondary schools teachers teach different years. Only HoY teach their own year. Block of toilets on each floor with 4 toilets, several urinals and 5 sinks. Staff toilet every other floor. Classrooms with sinks - Art, Science, Cooking, there's a 4 or 5 each iirc. Small classroom, halls etc single file only. They at least have 2 staircases so one for up and one for down. To get to classes either on the first floor of the main building, or have to go through that to get to classes. Ground floor is admin, hall etc. First aid room is an old broom cupboard !!

Secondary I worked in - 1 entrance, around 50 pupils, and around 40 staff - admin, head, assistants, ta's, lunchtime, tech, nhs, teachers. Plus around various passenger escorts and parents/carers collecting/dropping off. Students come from several boroughs and passenger escorts and drivers drop and pick up several pupils and can realistically have pupils from 2 years all the way to 19 from at least one school.The same bus can also have students from mainstream who have sn. They stayed opened for most of the school closure, but they had no-where near even half of their students.

Even with all the extra precautions they have in place to begin with, and strict control of the bubbles, they still had to close. Once someone sneezes or coughs, that's it, it's in the air.

It school. We all know how quickly things spread in schools. They were dropping like flies closing down before the closure was announced.