School re-opening under threat - thread 2

[DomDoesWotHeWants]

First thread here -

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/3981349-School-re-opening-under-threat?msgid=98768334

It seems to me that Johnson is creeping towards masks in schools come September, given that he's extended the paces they have to be worn.

Do teachers think that's enough?

Just pointing out that my primary has classes which are all between 32 and 35 in tiny rooms with 3 to a desk in some cases and children come in from a 15 mile radius on 4 minibuses and a coach. Each yeargroup is about 90 to 100 strong and in a "bubble" which means nothing on buses. Fuck knows how that is going to work.

I will be eating with my class, cleaning up after them and even cleaning their loo. I'll have a twenty minute lunch and 3 break duties a week.The stench ridden tweenage soup that passes for air will be breathed in by me, all day. I am entirely unable to social distance in my tiny classroom, even if all of my pupils were perfectly behaved.

If I could just have half sized classes I would feel so much safer. And if I don't have to wipe their loo down. I also don't have a TA and my menopausal body is dreading a 20 minute break on period weeks. I am likely to flood and i'll definitely end up with uti from not drinking enough.

Realistically how long would 2000 nasal swabs take? Or are you thinking these tests instead of the others? In which case not much difference other than speed of results.

When we do the Year 9 jabs it takes four hours to complete - 180 kids, 6 nurses and 4 members of staff to provide crowd control.

So swabbing 2000 kids will take a bit longer

@WhyNotMe40

Had enough with Corona coughing in March. Any cough will be straight to the office and home, and let parents deal with it. Should make lessons a lot easier by removing the usual disrupting types

My HT will be catapulting kids home who muck about in September. Year 10 and 12 experienced that in June 😂 miscreants we’re outside like lepers in the car park waiting to be picked up. Actually I am half-expecting him to have a central watchtower installed.

Watchtower - awesome idea

@lifeafter50

If they could get the 90 min test in schools you could test the coughed and if negative send them back into class /no need to be sent home. Send home anyone with symptoms that test positive and the rest just carry on.

So no isolation for their peers who have been sat within two metres for an hour?

My classroom has everyone about 10cm away from their nearest neighbour and within 2m of between 5-7 people depending on whether they're on a corner/edge the middle. So following current government guidance that's between 25 and 35 kids that need to isolate for one positive (+ possibly a teacher or two if they're sat at the front). That's ignoring form as it's 15 minutes in my school so allowing exit/entrance time they'd be just under the 15 minute limit.

Actually it's who you've been in close contact with for the last 48 hours isn't it? So unless it's a Monday that could potentially be up to 70 kids isolating for one case.

www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(20)30250-9/fulltext

Definitely worth a read.

life if someone coughs you don't send them back in after a negative test. they isolate until symptoms stop. I do hope your gung ho school is aware of the guidance on isolation because it doesn't sound like you are : or , fi you are, you intend to flout them.

A 'corona cougher' is fairly unlikely to admit it when questioned, tbh.

I think it is worth just tempering excitement over these 90 minute tests as virology experts are not overly convinced they'll work - they remain as yet untested. They may work, they may not.

The government have an established pattern of wheeling out a new contract or breakthrough when they need a cheering headline, so just take it all with a pinch of salt.

They've already bought ppe that went in the bin, a massive heap of tests that went in the bin, developed an app that went in the bin..
It's always jam tomorrow.

What we have now is rising cases, no social distancing in schools and a 24ish hour test. That's the reality and we need to get our heads round that for September.

Thanks Piggy that was a really interesting read.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53638083

So the news today that our T&T is currently not fit for purpose and this will cause transmission rates to rise. This is based on the assumption that

The study assumes children are less likely to catch - and therefore spread - coronavirus

So if the above is true there will still be a massive peak twice as big as the first in December. How big will it be if the above is NOT true? which now seems pretty evident plus senior school kids are not children

I'm having the most depressing feelings at the prospect of the Autumn/Winter term. Uncertainty is the understatement.

@morfin that has been demonstrated to be untrue, older teens spread it as much as anyone.

I'm also depressed @mrshoho, in my opinion the policy is 'we want schools to be able to open, so we will pretend everything is fine' and a significant portion of the UK population is on that page too.

Cover is going to be shit for the next couple of terms. Parents maybe complaining about worksheets last term well just wait until next term.

@Morfin

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53638083

So the news today that our T&T is currently not fit for purpose and this will cause transmission rates to rise. This is based on the assumption that

The study assumes children are less likely to catch - and therefore spread - coronavirus

So if the above is true there will still be a massive peak twice as big as the first in December. How big will it be if the above is NOT true? which now seems pretty evident plus senior school kids are not children

I think that might be from a something published in the lancet where they modelled various scenarios, some where schools open full time and some where they opened part time for all and then varied various levels of transmission (between 50% and 100% rate of adults). Some scenarios better than others, but all resulted in a second spike bigger than the first and the conclusion was that track and trace needs to be sorted ultimately! It might not be from there, but it sounds similar. I can try to find the link...

Here: www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(20)30250-9/fulltext

O posted that upthread already...

The aggression now of Tory ministers in their tone is not helping. I just heard one (an obscure no name) on the radio saying' school WILL go back . It is NOT UP FOR DEBATE'. The caps are there to show his aggression.

He then went on to say that it was up to eh public to behave responsibly to enable this. HOW!? Tell us how!! You can't make vague admonitory statements like that!

in my opinion the policy is 'we want schools to be able to open, so we will pretend everything is fine' and a significant portion of the UK population is on that page too.

This is it in a nutshell - very, very clearly this is the policy. Look how well it worked for Israel.

www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/world/middleeast/coronavirus-israel-schools-reopen.html?fbclid=IwAR3wimx7eN0vvdl3H4zzWCnShAi7L5zox8JKYIWmLKsCUK2NYiio5jLygbI

[quote IloveJKRowling]in my opinion the policy is 'we want schools to be able to open, so we will pretend everything is fine' and a significant portion of the UK population is on that page too.

This is it in a nutshell - very, very clearly this is the policy. Look how well it worked for Israel.

www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/world/middleeast/coronavirus-israel-schools-reopen.html?fbclid=IwAR3wimx7eN0vvdl3H4zzWCnShAi7L5zox8JKYIWmLKsCUK2NYiio5jLygbI[/quote]
Yet, our modelling is based on children not really spreading it?! September is going to be interesting.

😨 When it all goes pear shaped one thing we will not be able to say is that we could not have predicted these issues. The evidence is right there and we are about to make the same mistakes (worse in some ways as we will have no masks at anytime). I'm normally the optimist in my family, always the one to reassure that it will all be fine but I just can't do it for this.

When it all goes pear shaped one thing we will not be able to say is that we could not have predicted these issues.

You would think. However, I still expect some people to be taken by surprise, and moan that they had no idea XYZ would happen.

I'm starting to think those who keep saying schools should go back regardless want another lockdown. That seems to be where we are heading under current plans.

That Lancet paper is really interesting. It shows that with a properly functioning test and trace we could have schools back full time. It also shows that with the current test and trace we will have a massive increase in cases even if students spread it much less than adults (their working assumption). The solution to this isn't to shout 'schools back as normal whatever happens' but to make test and trace fit for purpose so schools can go back as normal.

Also I have some issues with their working assumption. I could accept children spread it less than adults, however I'm unsure the definition of a child for this purpose. The main physiological change between children and adults happens at puberty, so I assume this is when the ability to spread it would change. So for a girl that would be around y7/8 and for a boy a bit later in y9/10. This means that the majority of girls in secondary and about half the boys have bodies that work the same way as an adults.

I'm starting to think those who keep saying schools should go back regardless want another lockdown

I’m not sure, I think many just think children are fine and don’t think of the adults in school or families everyone goes home too, don’t want to home educate or want the free childcare school provides.

I’m also not convinced whatsoever that young children don’t spread it. They breathe, sneeze, cough etc just like everyone else.

This means that the majority of girls in secondary and about half the boys have bodies that work the same way as an adults.

The south korean epidemiological study supports this, showing children 10+ pass on virus as much if not more than adults.

Secondaries are also far less likely to be able to keep bubbles small - particularly under current (hugely inadequate IMO) guidelines.

The government needs to urgently re think their plans for secondary openings, (in my opinion primary too but definitely secondary). Money needs to be put in - our class sizes are well above OECD average, money needs to be put in ANYWAY, this seems like a good opportunity.

The government has wasted so much money on non-tendered contracts to unsuitable private companies (e.g. getting PPE from a small pest control company) and on a private test and trace not using the expertise in the public sector (and how much profit is being made?). If that wasted money had been put into schools we'd be in a much better position.

Can someone tell me when the adults are going to be in charge? I'm having dreams that Theresa May will come back and I was never a fan but I'm just looking for a small glimmer of competence somewhere from someone in a position of power......

I think many of them don't actually have school age children.