School re-opening under threat - thread 2

[DomDoesWotHeWants]

First thread here -

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/3981349-School-re-opening-under-threat?msgid=98768334

It seems to me that Johnson is creeping towards masks in schools come September, given that he's extended the paces they have to be worn.

Do teachers think that's enough?

@Flagsfiend

I think we need guidance that distinguishes between primary and secondary. They are very different educationally, as primary is much more in fixed classes, and also in terms of childcare. The vast majority of secondary students don't need childcare, but it is also true that not all primary parents rely on school for childcare - there may be a SAHP, older retired relative living in the family home, those who work shifts, those whose flexible work means they could fit it in whilst the children are at part-time school and supplement with evenings (or with older primary could let then entertain themselves if they wfh knowing the children were getting their education met at part-time school).

Absolutely there is a big difference between primary and secondary which I think posters are just starting to realise. The problem with a thread that just says schools is that it will lump all provision together.

Secondaries are dealing with young adults, option blocks, wider catchment areas, variety of transport modes etc

I think people here are overestimating the extent to which we don’t need to worry about “childcare” for secondary school aged children. If secondary schools do not go back we are talking about saying to a bunch of teenagers that we are going to take away their education, structure and purpose to their day tell them to sit at home on their own unsupervised when we know
A) they are unlikely to differ serious complications if they get the virus
B) adolescents have throughout history been more prone to risk taking behaviour

Add to this a lack of any supervision and the fact such young people are expected to sit at home while the adult world continues around them, going to work, to the pub and the gym. And no definite end date. Even if many teenagers would accept this situation as for the greater good I think a large number would not and the profound social consequences if left unsupervised would be great. The illegal raves and protest marches will be just the start!

I give it a month before we have the “but where were their parents” threads on here when the latest bat shit crazy craze perpetuate by board teenagers grips the national (we are already seeing an increased number of fire brigade call outs for teenagers trapped in baby swings which is apparently a craze, that will just be the start!)

But as far as I can tell, absolutely nobody is saying schools shouldn't go back.
If social distancing in secondary schools is not introduced though, (through part time attendance and blended learning), you are much much more likely to have whole year groups out of school for weeks at a time, which is more likely to lead to the "bored unsupervised teenagers" scenario.

Also,. secondary schools are not just populated by young people. They are also large employers with many older adults, a proportion of which will be clinically vulnerable. The employees of schools deserve the same mitigations and Covid secure workplaces as everyone else in the country.

I don’t think you are understanding what is being suggested here - no-one for a moment has suggested secondary schools don’t open.

I also think that’s a very unfair sweeping generalisation of the students I teach too. Of course there are some that will engage in risky behaviours but equally there are many that won’t. We aren’t suggesting they aren’t in school at all... they will get to see their mates/teachers/school just maybe not all day every day as part of the bigger picture.

We are suggesting (and not sure how many more times we can say this) that there is an in-between. It isn’t a stark choice between fully reopening at secondary and totally shut schools.

@WhyNotMe40

Also,. secondary schools are not just populated by young people. They are also large employers with many older adults, a proportion of which will be clinically vulnerable. The employees of schools deserve the same mitigations and Covid secure workplaces as everyone else in the country.

Yes it maybe easier to say primaries are more Covid secure because they are small, some maybe only one form entry, but secondaries are very different.

Let’s say 1000 plus pupils.

Some have wide catchment areas which involve public transport for a lot of pupils. They have large numbers of staff - teachers, admin, site maintenance, cleaners, kitchen staff. Then visitors - governors, healthcare, psychologists, social services, music teachers, specialist coaches/skills, careers advisors, police, visiting speakers, photocopier repair person, trades, suppliers delivering stuff ... so many more people

This is why people can not claim secondaries are Covid secure ...

And not all teenagers will muck about at home. The vast majority of teenagers are lovely. Only a very tiny number will try to wedge themselves into a baby swing.

@StaffAssociationRepresentative

And not all teenagers will muck about at home. The vast majority of teenagers are lovely. Only a very tiny number will try to wedge themselves into a baby swing.

And if they had some days in school regularly then that would give them structure and help them with their home working. Most teenagers would be fine under this system, and the small number that aren't could have something put in place for them.

They have large numbers of staff - teachers, admin, site maintenance, cleaners, kitchen staff. Then visitors - governors, healthcare, psychologists, social services, music teachers, specialist coaches/skills, careers advisors, police, visiting speakers, photocopier repair person, trades, suppliers delivering stuff ... so many more people

Primaries have many of those as well and many are very large-our local primary is a 5-form intake with nursery. I do agree that in secondaries, things are hugely magnified though and the public transport issue will be a huge one.

This has all being going round in circles for so long. I don't see why parents who are concerned about schools opening don't all de register their children and home educate, and teachers who are concerned don't just resign. The latter could help do online tutoring for the former.

I dont know why a lot of people are obsessed with de-registering. Think this is a new mumsnet phenomenon.

People don't have to deregister.

And if you have children in school, be wary of encouraging teachers to resign because it affects children when experienced teachers resign.

teachers who are concerned don't just resign

Because if we resigned now, we wouldn’t be able to leave until Christmas-that is how the teachers’ resignation dates work.

Don't take primary schools out of the equation, my daughter is going into a class of 33! The little ones have been allowed to not social distance because they can't, plus people not sure of the guidelines so its not consistent. I'm dreading the winter

Teachers also don't have to resign. If they are forced to work in an unsafe environment, legislation allows employees to immediately walk out. Won't that be great?
Honestly, don't you think it would just be better to value teachers and let them have the same mitigations and Covid secure workplaces as everyone else?

@iamapixie

This has all being going round in circles for so long. I don't see why parents who are concerned about schools opening don't all de register their children and home educate, and teachers who are concerned don't just resign. The latter could help do online tutoring for the former.

Because I don’t want to resign thanks, just want to do my job and keep everyone involved safe. Same as every other workplace is doing for their staff with what feels like the exception of teaching.

Parents who are concerned might not be able to home educate or might be working. They are allowed to want their children back in school safely.

What a ridiculous post.

Parents who are concerned might not be able to home educate or might be working

Too true. Which is why ft school is what government and many parents are aiming for.

Gosh what a palaver. It's not ridiculous at all, but a way of creating another compromise that might help society work better.
The point is that if, as many think, this is a new normal and life can't be the same again, I don't see why all options can't be on the table.
Education does not have to be the same if lots of people don't think it can be, and that certainly seems to be what a lot of teachers and parents on MN are saying.
So it would be win-win if some people who feel very strongly took personal responsibility to change things, and if you can home educate and don't want schools back, doing so would help everyone: you'd be less anxious, and there would be a space freed up for a bit more SD for those children who need school.
Equally, as a teacher, you could think about the benefits of self employed tutoring, just as an example - up to £60 per hour and the chance to give the kind of 1 to 1 help you can only dream or in a class of 30.
In just the same way as pre lockdown, many workplaces were unhelpful when it came to working from home but have now found that it can be done. It's not that everyone has to or can wfh. It's that if some can and do, it makes some difference.

Whilst I’m glad that pp recognised that forcing home education on people who cannot do it for various reasons is a bad idea - I agree it’s time to make school accessible to all with opt out homeschooling for those concerned.

Right, well in the school I teach in approx 60% of parents haven’t got a penny spare - we’ve been providing food boxes throughout for them. Deregistering and trying to pay for tutoring is a ridiculous suggestion - and one only those with plenty of £££ spare can have the luxury of even considering.

@iamapixie are you talking about primary or secondary? We’ve established from early on the first thread they are two different discussions. As has been repeatedly discussed primary is possibly less risky for a range of reasons (eg can probably actually have a bubble of 30 with minimal staff and no mixing of bubbles except siblings at home). Secondary is a totally different kettle of fish - I’m not going to repeat, again, all the many reasons that it isn’t particularly safe in secondary as ‘bubbles’ won’t exist.

Many teachers are suggesting secondary could be a blended learning approach as it doesn’t affect childcare/parental input in perhaps the same way. Why on earth you think me resigning will in anyway help the students I teach as a solution I have no idea. You’re aware there is a national shortage of teachers yes?

@MarshaBradyo

Whilst I’m glad that pp recognised that forcing home education on people who cannot do it for various reasons is a bad idea - I agree it’s time to make school accessible to all with opt out homeschooling for those concerned.

But isn’t the point that not all have that as an option BUT still have concerns? People can be concerned because they don’t feel it’s safe but at the same time don’t feel or don’t have the choice to opt out and home school.

Many people who have had to homeschool cannot. Yet no choice. Is it only those with concerns about safety that are to be considered? In September this will get harder still as furlough and wfh end. So any suggestion of part time school will impact these families.

And of course the vast majority of those people did not have funds for tutoring. They used Oak Academy or the emailed worksheet.

These would then be available to those who opt out. It doesn’t have to be tutoring.

I think FT or almost FT education should be possible if the government provided funding for extra staff (not necessarily teachers, but with mass redundancies on the horizon some adults capable of supervising children - if the workplace is covid secure then recruitment shouldn't be difficult), extra access to buildings (e.g. village halls, leisure centres), extra ventilation. And masks for everyone who can, including children. Pay rises for teachers who will have extra responsibility providing structured work for the extra TAs to supervise and oversight of how it is all going.

What is needed is some thinking outside the box. And extra money. And planning. None of this is happening. What the government is doing is basically wishful thinking. Their kids are in private schools who are doing all of this already, so I think most of them don't care about normal kids. They've done sweet fa about child poverty over recent years after all.

To be honest I've been shocked when reading about other countries that most EU countries have lower class sizes than the UK. Seems we're lagging behind on many fronts.

This is where the government could step up and provide rapidly organised additional childcare where children could be cared for in small bubbles, helped with the distance learning part of their schooling and also do additional activities such as arts and crafts which may not get so much of a look in in a reduced school timetable.