School re-opening under threat - thread 2

[DomDoesWotHeWants]

First thread here -

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/3981349-School-re-opening-under-threat?msgid=98768334

It seems to me that Johnson is creeping towards masks in schools come September, given that he's extended the paces they have to be worn.

Do teachers think that's enough?

I don't understand why everything else is New Normal but schools have to be exactly as it was before. I went to town today and the majority wore masks, had lunch and registered my details, went into a hairdresser and was temp checked, wanted. All different

@IloveJKRowling

To be honest I've been shocked when reading about other countries that most EU countries have lower class sizes than the UK. Seems we're lagging behind on many fronts.

Yes our student staff ratio is dreadful. The only people who have cared about that in the past have been teachers it is only now that parents are starting to understand how underfunded we are compared to other countries.

Teachers have been consistent in their message that we have large class sizes and small classrooms. That is why we are concerned about the welfare of our community. Parents are continuing to wfh because it is nor safe to be in busy offices - would they want to deliver lessons to KS4 where you have 20 to class and little chance of SD? The answer is no.

@Regulus

I don't understand why everything else is New Normal but schools have to be exactly as it was before. I went to town today and the majority wore masks, had lunch and registered my details, went into a hairdresser and was temp checked, wanted. All different

Parents don’t want a new normal in school. They want the old normal.

Okay not all but a vocal minority on MN and T4U/U4T/whoever do.

www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2020/07/31/new-evidence-suggests-young-children-spread-covid-19-more-efficiently-than-adults/#613616dd19fd

Interesting article for those of us going back to work with children under the age of five.

"According to the results, children 5 years and younger who develop mild to moderate Covid-19 symptoms have 10 to 100 times as much SARS-CoV-2 in the nasopharynx as older children and adults.

Whenever these young children cough, sneeze, or shout, they expel virus-laden droplets from the nasopharynx into the air. If they have as much as one hundred times the amount of virus in their throat and nasal passages as adults, it only makes sense that they would spread the virus more efficiently. The study also shows that children from the ages of 5 to 17, also with mild to moderate Covid-19 symptoms, have the same amount of virus in the nasopharynx as adults age 18 and above. "

Parents don’t want a new normal in school. They want the old normal.

I don't know why because the old normal is shit compared to other countries and will deliver worse educational outcomes (large class sizes and not enough staff) regardless of covid. Despite the dedicated staff

It's about time parents started supporting teachers and stepping up and writing to MPs

@EducatingArti

This is where the government could step up and provide rapidly organised additional childcare where children could be cared for in small bubbles, helped with the distance learning part of their schooling and also do additional activities such as arts and crafts which may not get so much of a look in in a reduced school timetable.

This could be a great solution - all the interesting things that get cut from the curriculum and more outdoors playing and learning and PE etc... sadly though as others have pointed out they don’t care about state schools.

Also pp mentioned classes of 20 at KS4 - ours are all 30/32. One of our rooms in my department is so small we have folding exam desks to put up once all the kids are in because they can’t physically get in if put up before and one class I had a 33rd student who had to sit on the end of the desk where two others sat already as there wasn’t physically enough room to get another desk in.

Even if we go back to full classes I don’t know how we’ll be able to teach and support effectively if we aren’t allowed to walk around a room or go near a student to look at and write in their books etc... it would be much better to have smaller classes where I can individually support and work with the students I think. Basically it’s going to be pretty shit it feels like at the moment whatever we do because we still don’t know what it will look like in many schools.

I had folding exam desks in my room this year just gone to accommodate pupils as I only had standard desks and room for 32 (and that was a squeeze) but two classes I had 33 plus an occasional 1:1 TA who also needed a desk. The desk rows were wall to wall with one narrow central aisle and no other gaps between desks. No space. No ventilation.

@EducatingArti

This is where the government could step up and provide rapidly organised additional childcare where children could be cared for in small bubbles, helped with the distance learning part of their schooling and also do additional activities such as arts and crafts which may not get so much of a look in in a reduced school timetable.

So a bit like school but not school

More like a holiday play scheme. It could employ many who are trained child care workers but who have lost jobs due to businesses shutting. It could also employ younger people who are finding it harder to get work at present. You wouldn't need qualified teachers for this bit and it could take place and be managed away from schools which would solve the lack of space issue on school sites.

More like a holiday play scheme. It could employ many who are trained child care workers but who have lost jobs due to businesses shutting. It could also employ younger people who are finding it harder to get work at present. You wouldn't need qualified teachers for this bit and it could take place and be managed away from schools which would solve the lack of space issue on school sites.

Such a great idea. And speaking personally, as someone with an enhanced DBS who's done a lot of volunteering in my specialist area, I'd be willing to go in and do some workshops with children on a voluntary basis if I felt that schools were covid secure (at least as covid secure as shops), I could wear a mask and socially distance.

It's difficult not to conclude that the government really aren't trying that hard to get schools open in a safe way.

@IloveJKRowling

Totally agree! Opening schools ft with no SD will spread the virus, that is obvious

Government clearly fine with that, I am not so fine with that

The issue with part time is that it means parents can't work, at least if not WFH. And this includes teachers: how can they teach full time if their own child only goes back part time?

Nothing to do with not wanting to look after them, I quite enjoyed the homeschooling during lockdown to be honest, but then we were all WFH at this point and employers knew school were closed so it was accepted that children might be home with us. Not sure employers will be happy about it if schools are open...

@PleasePassTheCoffeeThanks

It is tricky but at risk of paraphrasing, once you've eliminated the impossible, what you're left with, however improbable, is the only policy option.

I think impossible are:

• full time no social distancing, as the virus will spread
• full time half classes, as we don't have spare staff
• online only, as too bad for mental health of a significant group and no contact with vulnerable pupils

Which is why pt feels like the more managed disruption to me. Govt could mandate temporary protections for parents/carers, there are real issues around wages, but I just don't see how planned pt is worse for either employees or employers than the highly disrupted term ahead as people are constantly isolating etc.

Er, the last few comments are all about making sure kids can be looked after 'full time' i.e. full school hours but also achieving smaller bubbles, social distancing, and other measures to help stop virus spread, AVOIDING outbreaks and school closures.

And yes, if ft with SD were possible, even better.

@PleasePassTheCoffeeThanks

The issue with part time is that it means parents can't work, at least if not WFH. And this includes teachers: how can they teach full time if their own child only goes back part time?

Nothing to do with not wanting to look after them, I quite enjoyed the homeschooling during lockdown to be honest, but then we were all WFH at this point and employers knew school were closed so it was accepted that children might be home with us. Not sure employers will be happy about it if schools are open...

That's why I think the government need to rapid build the child care centres as I described above. They would be available to parents who need childcare in order to work and for other families with exceptional circumstances. Parents could choose to have their children at home on days they weren't in school if that worked better It would also deal with the children in school or get fined issue. Only the designated school days would be compulsory.

Full time half classes would be possible if the government were willing to invest in schools - not necessarily more teachers but more TAs and using community spaces.

Sadly, this does not seem to be the case.

We're going to end up with such disrupted education just because our government can't accept the inevitable and is unwilling to put money in (I understand they ARE putting money into Scottish schools though).

EducatingArti I agree it’s no longer the right approach to use school as childcare for a fairly large group of children, and your idea would stop that, do you think part time education would lag very much behind in state v private?

@IloveJKRowling

Full time half classes would be possible if the government were willing to invest in schools - not necessarily more teachers but more TAs and using community spaces.

Sadly, this does not seem to be the case.

We're going to end up with such disrupted education just because our government can't accept the inevitable and is unwilling to put money in (I understand they ARE putting money into Scottish schools though).

I would feel so happy if they did this.

I've hated this summer, I'm unlikely to feel willing to send mine in September and have never been so glum in a summer holiday as a result.

@MarshaBradyo

EducatingArti I agree it’s no longer the right approach to use school as childcare for a fairly large group of children, and your idea would stop that, do you think part time education would lag very much behind in state v private?

I think it might be ok because teachers could cover topics and set consolidation work for home/ childcare centre which they would otherwise be doing in school. Added to which class sizes would be halved so each child could get a lot more individual attention and support when in school.

De-register and home educate has long been the dismissive response to parents raising legitimate concerns with the adequacy of SEN provision in schools.

It is not really surprising that a wider group of parents raising legitimate concerns over the adequacy of safety in schools get the same lazy response.

It's annoying isn't it?

An analogy might be employees raising legitimate concerns only to be dismissed and 'advised' to resign and live off grid.

Like it or lump it. It's kind of an unwelcome reminder that state provided education is not designed to benefit children as people but merely as compliant, expendable value producers.

It's dehumanising isn't it?

I am really hoping they say part-time blended learning for secondary. Education is essential, but it's not essential for 2000 children from one school to be packed on buses, in corridors, in the dining hall.

What I really don't understand is that secondary teachers have not been told to teach a reduced range of classes eg you might only teach maths for years 7 and 8 and only work in that area of the school. That's got to reduce the number you come in contact with, hasn't it?

Some lessons might work better online to others. This could be a time to grow our young people's digital skills?

What nobody wants is for everyone to go back full time in September and then their child be sent home with a cough every few weeks with no provision for them to learn from home.

Doesn’t it look likely that these 90 min tests will be extended to at least secondary schools? So any child with symptoms knows immediately , schools can then ensure their bubble is remote schooled for 2 weeks. Would this make worried teachers and parents feel better? Seems a lot more doable than masks?

@tootyfruitypickle

Doesn’t it look likely that these 90 min tests will be extended to at least secondary schools? So any child with symptoms knows immediately , schools can then ensure their bubble is remote schooled for 2 weeks. Would this make worried teachers and parents feel better? Seems a lot more doable than masks?

Realistically how long would 2000 nasal swabs take? Or are you thinking these tests instead of the others? In which case not much difference other than speed of results.

We need to stop the spread of the virus in the first place.