Cardiac Damage Even in Mild Cases

[ClimbDad]

Two studies of COVID-19 sufferers show serious damage to the heart, even in mild and asymptomatic cases. 78% of people had damage in one study, which specifically excluded anyone who’d previously been diagnosed with a heart condition. 2/3rds of people in the study were never hospitalised with COVID19, and were classed as mild or asymptomatic cases who’d recovered at home.

“These were relatively young, healthy patients who fell ill in the spring, Valentina Puntmann, who led the MRI study, pointed out in an interview. Many of them had just returned from ski vacations. None of them thought they had anything wrong with their hearts.”

Dirk Westermann, a cardiologist at the University Heart and Vascular Centre in Hamburg, said in an interview. “We don’t know the long-term consequences of the changes in gene expression yet. I know from other diseases that it’s obviously not good to have that increased level of inflammation.”

Taken together, the two studies, published Monday in JAMA Cardiology, suggest that in many patients, Covid-19 could presage heart failure, a chronic, progressive condition in which the heart’s ability to pump blood throughout the body declines. It is too soon to say if the damage in patients recovering from Covid-19 is transient or permanent, but cardiologists are worried.“

78%, not 1%, not even 7%. 78% with heart problems. These complications are not rare. I don’t understand why so many people on MN are willing to gamble their long-term health and the health of friends and family.

If schools are to open with normal class sizes in September, students and teachers must wear masks. The long-term human and economic cost of this virus is only just starting to become clear. We need to do everything possible to minimise transmission.

www.statnews.com/2020/07/27/covid19-concerns-about-lasting-heart-damage/

@Jrobhatch29

There is something not right. He told us on a previous thread he is a scientist working on a covid treatment. Is that true? He spends alot of time on mumsnet for someone with one of the most important jobs in the world right now. I agree, if he just said "what shall we do about the mask situation? Can we all pull together?" it would be more effective. Using really scary and emotive stories is just worrying people

He's not using scary and emotive stories he'd posting scientific journals. It's not some social media friend of a friend. The desire by many to prevent discussion as it's doesn't fit their 'agenda' is terrifying.

This thread shares a credible source but others certainly havent been

Sunshinegirl82

But all that he's doing is pointing out studies that have been done. The fact that they aren't positive shouldn't mean they get hidden away should it? If you know of positive studies why not highlight them and balance it out?

It really does feel like censorship tbh to criticise someone for linking to respected journals just because the studies don't support what you believe.

Jrobhatch29

It's a scientific study not a scary and emotive story. The ones being emotive are the ones saying they don't believe it but without being able to.present an opposing argument backed up by studies.

People keep saying everyone should make their own judgements. Well, to do that they need the full picture, not just half the picture.

It seems to me that a lot of you have got your own agenda that you are pushing. Why are you determined to aggressively push the "it's only the flu, don't worry, all get back to normal, nothing to worry about" agenda?

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Sunshinegirl82

But all that he's doing is pointing out studies that have been done. The fact that they aren't positive shouldn't mean they get hidden away should it? If you know of positive studies why not highlight them and balance it out?

It really does feel like censorship tbh to criticise someone for linking to respected journals just because the studies don't support what you believe.

Jrobhatch29

It's a scientific study not a scary and emotive story. The ones being emotive are the ones saying they don't believe it but without being able to.present an opposing argument backed up by studies.

People keep saying everyone should make their own judgements. Well, to do that they need the full picture, not just half the picture.

It seems to me that a lot of you have got your own agenda that you are pushing. Why are you determined to aggressively push the "it's only the flu, don't worry, all get back to normal, nothing to worry about" agenda?

Literally nobody has said it is just the flu. Not fair hooves. I am just as worried about covid as anyone else.

How is asking the OP to tell us what action he/she thinks would be helpful trying to silence them?

The idea that posters who are not positive or who share concerning or negative information are "silenced" doesn't seem to be bourne out based on the vast number of such posts.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

I have said nothing of the kind or even close.

My question remains, what action does the OP think it would be good for the average mumsnetter to take in connection with their clear agenda on masks in schools. I don't expect an answer from the OP as they are always silent on that. I find that odd.

And what is not emotive about repeatedly telling a forum full of mums that their kids are at risk? Even though all the evidence shows they are low risk.
It causes so much tension as well and then you have people telling you you are basically selfish for wanting your kids to go to school.
I am sure I saw @BigChocFrenzy post some positive info yesterday on the data thread about children and staff working with children in all settings in germany, showing the low risk for all involved.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

I agree with the others no one is saying

"it's only the flu, don't worry, all get back to normal, nothing to worry about"

Not least of all because as Climbdad himself has shown flu itself isnt just the flu.

As an aside that I think has always been an issue. Saying COVID is just the flu is massively underestimating the flu. As a study on this showed flu can lead to heart inflammation that leaves you hospitalised. Its just we have immunity against it and vaccine.

COVID is a different beast (not least of all because it looks unlikely to be a respiratory infection).

But the problem is however much he claims to be - he doesnt come across as a s Scientist. The links he posts and what he says never offer the full picture they just cherry pick the bits he finds useful and changes it to his narrative. Without context or reading the paper you can come up with different conclusions.

No one beleives we should get back to normal but neither can we stay paralysed in fear

We are not Germany. I am sure you would see many more people expressing confidence in the response of a government headed by Angela Merkel instead of Boris Johnson. They have had a fraction of our cases and deaths, their IFR is far lower than ours, they have larger schools, smaller class sizes (an average of 21 v our 27) and require masks for corridors.

The entire reason behind having a Coronavirus board is so that people who do not want to read it do not have to. You should not expect anything from other posters other than that they abide by Mumsnet rules. Monitor your own behaviour, not that of others, and don't expect nothing but good news in the middle of a pandemic.

Above all else, I am sick of seeing people playing the man, not the ball. It feels like bullying to me.

@nellodee

We are not Germany. I am sure you would see many more people expressing confidence in the response of a government headed by Angela Merkel instead of Boris Johnson. They have had a fraction of our cases and deaths, their IFR is far lower than ours, they have larger schools, smaller class sizes (an average of 21 v our 27) and require masks for corridors.

The entire reason behind having a Coronavirus board is so that people who do not want to read it do not have to. You should not expect anything from other posters other than that they abide by Mumsnet rules. Monitor your own behaviour, not that of others, and don't expect nothing but good news in the middle of a pandemic.

This is what I mean. Hooves said balance it with positive news. When you do, it gets shot down in flames. You cannot win!

Deaths per 1M population:

UK 3rd in the world 676
Germany 40th in the world 110

So you want us to watch you compare the UK and Germany without referencing this difference?

I give up. Anyway, have a nice day everyone. The sun is shining here for a change☀️

I'll repeat what I said earlier: a small scale study by vested interests in one journal doesn't mean squat, it isn't really newsworthy.

In this single journal (and there are apparently over a hundred cardiology journals, personally I've never heard of it) there have been 10 cardiac-related COVID articles submitted in the last month alone. Taking one study and blowing it out of all proportion both in terms of its importance and findings is completely irresponsible and misleading.

However, if the OP's real intention is to try to stop schools reopening in September, then I personally don't have a problem with that, provided schools are defunded and the money instead given directly to parents for technology purchases, online lessons, broadband provision and private tutoring.

Of course this will massively exacerbate social inequality, but if schools refuse to reopen I'm certainly not prepared to have the same situation as this school year with no curriculum and no effective learning.

@Sunshinegirl82

Always the radio silence on what action the OP is looking for. I find that a bit odd no? The approach makes me feel like it's an attempt to manipulate in some way.

Why not say "there really does seem to be a lot of evidence that masks make a big difference. If you agree it would really help if you could write to your MP/sign this petition/etc." Because quite frankly even if the countless threads succeed and lots of mumsnetters are convinced it makes absolutely no difference to what actually happens if they don't do anything.

It feels like the OP is lobbying mumsnet, we aren't in charge of policy. If you want people to help you to persuade those who are then get them onside and be honest.

Agree with this constant articles posted when people are suffering severe mental health we know it is bad but however much you post it is not going to make the government do anything different

"What is not emotive about repeatedly telling a forum full of mums that their kids are at risk? Even though all the evidence shows they are low risk."

He is showing you evidence that they are NOT low risk.

Another strawman - I don't think anyone is suggesting schools should not open at all.

My personal preference for secondaries is for a 50/50 split of remote (not online) learning and in school. I think teachers should prepare packs for the off weeks and hand them out on the on weeks. I think this should be law (as it is when children are excluded). We should have shielding teachers in charge of putting together the off week learning. We should have capacity to deal with increased levels of staff absence this winter, because it is absolutely certain to happen, regardless of any resurgence of Covid, due to the self-isolation rules and the fact that teachers will both get sick and have children who get sick.

I think it is better to plan for 50% on, 50% off provision that can cope with small waves and be safer, than 100% provision that is bound to collapse at many places all over the country.

This does not mean I think schools should not open, nor does it mean I am a lazy teacher (providing packs and ensuring they are completed would mean far, far more work).

'if the OP's real intention is to try to stop schools reopening in September'

OP does not say that- the opening post mentions mask wearing.

As do many others, such as NASWT

If you have not heard of JAMA, I suspect you are new to reading medical papers?

Anyway I am out have a nice day everyone

@nellodee that's fine, if that is your proposal to give children half their lessons, your school should get half its funding and you should get half your wages. Forget "preparing packs" that can be done by a third party.

Parents should receive the other half (well actually slightly less than half because schools have certain fixed costs) to spend on technology, broadband provision, online materials and private tuition.

[quote Sunshinegirl82]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

I have said nothing of the kind or even close.

My question remains, what action does the OP think it would be good for the average mumsnetter to take in connection with their clear agenda on masks in schools. I don't expect an answer from the OP as they are always silent on that. I find that odd.[/quote]
Why does he have to tell you what actions to take?

On another thread someone asked what actions he wanted schools to take and he was very clear - lower pupil numbers, masks and SD.

This is important information and people should be aware of it. Too many people on MN are trying to convince everyone that if you are healthy then this is nothing to worry about. You see it repeatedly - only X number of under 50s have died and they had this, that or the other health condition - it's seeking to "other" people that have died. Many posters have been saying for a while now that dying is only one negative outcome and that we need to be aware not only of death rates but also of the long term complications. This study is one that is suggesting cardiac complications in patients that have had Covid. Maybe all that he's trying to do is raise awareness that even if you only have a "mild" case it can still have serious implications for your health so be careful, don't get complacent or think you don't need to worry about precautions because you are under 40 or have no pre existing conditions.

@RoseAndRose of course I'm new to reading medical papers, my qualifications have nothing to do with medicine and health. I'm simply spe playing on the real reason behind the OP's post, because it certainly isnt an altruistic concern for mumsnetters' health

But commentatorz, the teacher would be in EVERY week AND making the online packs. Why should they get half pay?

because I'm saying they dont have to make online packs or be in every week. Online providers and private tutors can do that half.

My proposal is that teachers should make paper packs that would align perfectly with what was being taught in the on week. This would solve problems with access to technology and be far superior to a one size fits all approach from a third party supplier.