Cardiac Damage Even in Mild Cases

[ClimbDad]

Two studies of COVID-19 sufferers show serious damage to the heart, even in mild and asymptomatic cases. 78% of people had damage in one study, which specifically excluded anyone who’d previously been diagnosed with a heart condition. 2/3rds of people in the study were never hospitalised with COVID19, and were classed as mild or asymptomatic cases who’d recovered at home.

“These were relatively young, healthy patients who fell ill in the spring, Valentina Puntmann, who led the MRI study, pointed out in an interview. Many of them had just returned from ski vacations. None of them thought they had anything wrong with their hearts.”

Dirk Westermann, a cardiologist at the University Heart and Vascular Centre in Hamburg, said in an interview. “We don’t know the long-term consequences of the changes in gene expression yet. I know from other diseases that it’s obviously not good to have that increased level of inflammation.”

Taken together, the two studies, published Monday in JAMA Cardiology, suggest that in many patients, Covid-19 could presage heart failure, a chronic, progressive condition in which the heart’s ability to pump blood throughout the body declines. It is too soon to say if the damage in patients recovering from Covid-19 is transient or permanent, but cardiologists are worried.“

78%, not 1%, not even 7%. 78% with heart problems. These complications are not rare. I don’t understand why so many people on MN are willing to gamble their long-term health and the health of friends and family.

If schools are to open with normal class sizes in September, students and teachers must wear masks. The long-term human and economic cost of this virus is only just starting to become clear. We need to do everything possible to minimise transmission.

www.statnews.com/2020/07/27/covid19-concerns-about-lasting-heart-damage/

@Legoandloldolls

How do you remove all risk long term?

Where is the vaccine?

100% avoidance of covid for 100% of the population is no compatible with western life. Unless your happy to stay safe at home while others risk there life producing your food.

You do know that everyone dies OP? You cant cheat death. Your dieing a little bit every day. Death comes to everyone. Try to find peace with mortality

The OP is clearly aware of that.

Which is why they're advocating masks and social distancing measures in schools.

We can't completely avoid it, no, but we can take measures to mitigate the risks.

What on earth is wrong with the OP calling for that. Agree with others. So what if he's got an agenda, because it's a good one.

I find it interesting that there’s another thread running about polio & measles & everyone is sharing their reminisces of people they knew who were affected or worried about those awful diseases.
Nobody is correcting them or doubting their experiences yet people who talk about their ongoing complications from mild Covid or say they know youngish people who died or were in ICU, have been questioned & gaslit - there was one awful thread on MN where people were interrogated about how they could possibly know so many fit people on ventilators or dying when it was such a “vanishingly small” (their words) chance of anyone that age having anything serious happen.
Yet polio, before vaccination in mid50s, was 7000 cases a year in the U.K., less than 800 deaths a year. A fraction of what Covid has done in six months. But no one has questioned people on the polio & measles thread about the veracity of their statements (and nor do I BTW)
My mother grew up when swimming pools were a place of fear because of polio. Often wouldn’t go in summer months because of those fears. Was she a ‘dementor’ or ‘doom mongerer’ or have mental health issues around mortality?
I don’t understand why some people on here are so quick to rubbish legitimate concerns about Covid, backed by science in leading publications and question the poster’s mental health for wanting to share that information. I have to ask, what is their agenda?

@lousleftkneelies

What’s the point in these posts aimed at frightening the crap out of people? It’s not like people are choosing to do COVID like smoking and drinking....

The point is to inform and educate those people who are under the delusion they can ignore social distancing, and can afford to risk catching covid because they are young and healthy so it won't do them any harm.

As I teacher, I’m trying to understand and appreciate what you are trying to achieve with the constant threads pointing out the worse possible scenarios out there.

Presumably to get people, especially teachers such as you, to take them seriously. If you find it too unsettling, don’t read it!

The point is to inform and educate those people who are under the delusion they can ignore social distancing, and can afford to risk catching covid because they are young and healthy so it won't do them any harm

If you read the OP it relates to masks in schools.

I take it you think young people are uneducated and non compliant then?

*Which is why they're advocating masks and social distancing measures in schools.

We can't completely avoid it, no, but we can take measures to mitigate the risks.

What on earth is wrong with the OP calling for that. Agree with others. So what if he's got an agenda, because it's a good one.*

But why keep doing it here? Why post repeated threads all basically saying the same thing? Why won’t he answer that? And what does he expect MNers to do about it?

The point is to inform and educate those people who are under the delusion they can ignore social distancing, and can afford to risk catching covid because they are young and healthy so it won't do them any harm

No it isn’t.

It’s to repeatedly find and post the most negative stories and articles he can to continually push an agenda of part time school and mask wearing.

Who are you ClimbDad? Teacher? Teaching union rep? Aren’t there more official channels you can use to push this agenda?

Why does it matter if he keeps posting?
People can ignore if they find it repetitive or boring.

@SengaStrawberry If the OP believes part-time school and mask wearing is a sensible policy, why shouldn't he try to convince others of that view?

I personally find Climbdad's posts really interesting. He certainly comes from the perspective that this country isn't doing enough to control the virus (with the worst death rate of any g7 nation, no-one can really argue with that). But he backs up his opinions with supporting scientific facts.

The same can't be said of those coming here just to criticise his 'negativity'. Facts aren't negative, they just are. They might not be good news for us as humans . These posters are never citing scientific papers with alternative data.

The fact, clearly stated in the paper cited, is that we don't know if the cardiac damage is temporary or permanent - I don't know where anyone is getting the idea that it's 'most likely temporary' except by blind hope. I hope that it's temporary, but we just simply don't know and the fact that more and more scientific studies are showing long term damage suggests that perhaps we should be a bit more precautionary in how we're opening up - particularly in schools where the government has done less than virtually any other country I've looked at to mitigate risk

It's SHOCKING. Rather than criticise Climbdad - really look at what other countries are doing and the proposals of our government for september. Maybe you'll still be fine with schools opening as proposed. I'm not. I want schools open but not with literally no effort at all to reduce risk, no masks, and no money for extra cleaning. I've written to my MP.

I want schools opening like they are in Germany, or S Korea, or any number of other countries who are doing more, and doing better.

@IloveJKRowling agree completely. I’ve also written to my MP (he’s useless so not holding out much hope), to the DFE & local council.
There’s a window of opportunity to learn from other countries & change direction. There’s no shortage of science now, most of which points towards taking a precautionary approach - they can’t argue they had poor data this time round.
And before someone jumps on me, this isn’t an argument to “close schools forever” - I desperately want schools open but with simple measures like increased social distancing & masks to take account of the scientifically proven fact that infection is mainly via airborne transmission.

I love ClimbDad's posts and have found them really helpful. The massive backlash in the comments is sad but not surprising. People do seem to prefer full-on head down into positivity and denial as a way of coping - and it's actually a pretty effective way of dealing with things emotionally, in some ways. But it's not acceptable to launch personal attacks at someone just because you don't agree with them, that's pretty childish.

Keep posting, @ClimbDad, I'm reading and noting what you're saying.

But if I was starting threads trying to persuade people of my point of view and realised I was constantly cheesing a substantial portion of people off, I would change my style. Otherwise it starts to become pointless. The ones who agree with me, well they are already won over...

Also, I would certainly explain what my skin in the game was.

There's often people like op on Mumsnet, constantly posting with links or cut & pasting about the same issues but never opening up. I start to think they are double agents.

I don't recognise OP's name. This thread is the first one I've seen. I can't be the only one. Mumsnet has over a million registered users and many more unregistered readers. I tend to flick through Active so mainly only notice threads active when I'm on.

So what if they're a 'double agent'? They're not breaking the law or doing anything wrong. They're posting relevant and interesting factual information.

@SheepandCow Absolutely agree with you. Keep posting @ClimbDad #solidarity

But why carry on trying to convince people in such a way that alienates a fair few posters? If op is correct to be worried (they may well be) it's even more important to make an effort to be persuasive surely? It's starts to become counterproductive. Why not be open with why your posting endless threads? What you're hoping to achieve?

If you search op user name you'll see there have been many threads started by them in a similar vain.

Always the radio silence on what action the OP is looking for. I find that a bit odd no? The approach makes me feel like it's an attempt to manipulate in some way.

Why not say "there really does seem to be a lot of evidence that masks make a big difference. If you agree it would really help if you could write to your MP/sign this petition/etc." Because quite frankly even if the countless threads succeed and lots of mumsnetters are convinced it makes absolutely no difference to what actually happens if they don't do anything.

It feels like the OP is lobbying mumsnet, we aren't in charge of policy. If you want people to help you to persuade those who are then get them onside and be honest.

@Derbygerbil

As I teacher, I’m trying to understand and appreciate what you are trying to achieve with the constant threads pointing out the worse possible scenarios out there.

Presumably to get people, especially teachers such as you, to take them seriously. If you find it too unsettling, don’t read it!

As I have already caught covid @Derbygerbil I’m not sure how I’m likely to take it more seriously!! It’s frightened the life out of me even though I appear to have only had a mild illness. Your post seems to insinuate that I’ve been merrily going about my business as normal and couldn’t have cared less whether I caught or not! I followed the bloody rules!

Climbdad, we get that you don't want to send your kids back to school. That's your choice!
Trying to scare the rest of us out of sending ours back is interesting! Are you just trying to validate your own decision, or are you just scared that the children who are going to get an education after September are going to out-compete your DC at some point in the future?
Either way, you really do need to get a new hobby..

@SengaStrawberry

But why keep doing it here? Why post repeated threads all basically saying the same thing?

Why do you repeatedly post criticising @ClimbDad and impugning his motives? Why do you keep on doing that here? What’s your agenda?!... Can’t you see your glaring hypocrisy here?

Mumsnet are not in charge of school return policy

Mumsnet is not in charge of anything... Does that mean no one can raise or discuss anything.

I don’t necessarily agree with @ClimbDad and his position, but I’m concerned some people seem to want to shut him down just because he wants to highlight concerns based on peer reviewed scientific papers. I’m much concerned about their agenda and their determination to ensure that we collectively put our heads in the sand for fear of being made uncomfortable.

The op has linked to a study in a respected journal.

I can't think of any reason that anyone could have for objecting to it.

You can't demand that scientific data is hidden because it doesn't conform to your belief because that would be, well, censorship.

If you have data that shows this isn't correct why not link to it and have a proper debate, rather than just hurling insults?

There is something not right. He told us on a previous thread he is a scientist working on a covid treatment. Is that true? He spends alot of time on mumsnet for someone with one of the most important jobs in the world right now. I agree, if he just said "what shall we do about the mask situation? Can we all pull together?" it would be more effective. Using really scary and emotive stories is just worrying people