Schools Reopening?

[ClimbDad]

A major, peer reviewed study into transmission in South Korea has established that tweens and teenagers spread the SARSCOV2 virus more than any other age group.

The study involved more than 65,000 people and used South Korea’s exceptionally effective contact tracing system to look at who brought the virus into households. Tweens and teenagers were the highest index case age group. Younger children transmitted at the same rate as 20-somethings.

This is a large scale, rigorous piece of research that proves children are effective at transmitting the virus. It was conducted in a country that implements strict social distancing and mask wearing among children. The authors say the rate of transmission would have been higher if children weren’t subjected to those measures.

Plans to reopen schools more or less as normal in September will place many lives at risk, and increase the likelihood schools will have to close again. The government needs to acknowledge schools will be highly efficient vectors of viral transmission and change its reopening plans.

Published Paper:
wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/10/20-1315_article

Article on the paper:

www.bloombergquint.com/business/covid-19-spread-fastest-by-teens-and-tweens-korea-study-finds

We are careful, we are socially distancing and doing all we can to avoid catching the virus.

Time - I don’t want to lock my children up any more than you. The mental health of one of mine is suffering.

Yes our kids are safe now - if we are being careful. But they’re not back at school yet. Do you really believe that they are going to be socially distancing then?

@openplankitchen

It doesn't matter how you refer to it. The government can 'minimise community transmission' by SD and face coverings. Or bubbles and local lockdowns. Which are more appropriate for schools

Yes agreed that bubbles are fine at primary as long as the adults can stay in the same bubble. Which is currently not the case. But bubbles at secondary are just nonsense. It is impossible - they are a pr exercise.. Schools need extra funding for cleaning and extra staff and being allowed to wear masks! It's not like we are asking for the moon on a stick ffs.

@Piggywaspushed

I can assure you the guidelines had no input whatsoever from unions or headteachers. This is widely known.

It is not an effective plan to keep telling teachers not to worry. People should be more worried that these professionals ARE worried. if a doctor or nurse told you they were worried, would you also dismiss them?

I think it's naive to think there would have been no meetings with unions or HT. of course there were!

@pontypridd

We are careful, we are socially distancing and doing all we can to avoid catching the virus.

Time - I don’t want to lock my children up any more than you. The mental health of one of mine is suffering.

Yes our kids are safe now - if we are being careful. But they’re not back at school yet. Do you really believe that they are going to be socially distancing then?

I think they will be socially distancing as much as many families are now..............

I really don't understand why you are arguing against this openplankitchen.

There is also no mention of the mental health impact on children who have anxiety about bringing the virus home to vulnerable relatives.

Children aren't stupid, they know if there is no effort to reduce risk. They'll be fine, but their relatives might not be.

My daughter has been happy going back this past week in small bubbles, with social distancing and extra hygiene measures but the plan is in September to do away with all of this because they want all children back all the time. She's going to be scared and ask why the measures have been abandoned, and ask if the virus has gone. How is it going to make her feel safe in school when I tell her it hasn't (in fact infection will probably be higher in September with all the relaxing of rules)?

I’m dreading my DD going back to secondary and so is she. School have sent out a letter stating how they’ll be managing learning from now on.

She’ll learn better at home, on her own than at school in September - with all the new rigmarole. I’m not just worried for her safety but also for her education.

The unions have been quite vocal in how they have not been consulted.
I suspect only the big fat cat CEOs of MAT who only ever set foot in a classroom for photo ops have been consulted.

The government’s own documents say

The highest risk is in indoor, crowded, poorly-ventilated space for an extended period of time. (so, classrooms)

The Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) has advised on 39 actions that can reduce the risk of transmission.
These include:
changing shift patterns so staff work in set teams (no, teachers are teaching hundreds of different kids)
improving ventilation (hah, no)
changing room layouts to orientate people better, for example in restaurants (schools have been told to have all kid facing the teacher putting them at maximum risk)
increase cleaning and handwashing (no money for this, and teachers now have no time to wash their hands)
encouraging the use of protective screens and face coverings (not only not encouraged, but actively discouraged)

Now tell us again why teachers should be fine with what wouldn’t be allowed in other workplaces especially as their workplace is highest risk?

@WhyNotMe40

I really don't understand why you are arguing against this openplankitchen.

Extra funding for schools. Never argued against that. Sadly the country has a record level of debt at the moment so there won't be much extra funding around. Unless we vote to raise taxes... very unlikely I'd say. Although I personally would.

Face coverings in schools. Nope! Not practical for teaching in. Would discriminate against children with communication difficulties. Children wouldn't wear correctly, if at all. Can't wear for PE. Swimming. Drama. Music. Break time. Lunch. So would hardly be worn anyway. Not suitable for children under 11. Wouldn't prevent bubbles having to lockdown as don't count as PPE.

Just no no no!

Time - how can they be socially distancing?

My daughter is going back to secondary. There’s 180 in each year in a tiny crammed building with barely any outside space.

They’re going to be crammed in tiny classrooms of at the very least 30 - all day whilst different teachers come to them.

Lunch and break - crammed in tiny playground space with the whole year.

This will be nothing like the social distancing we’ve been doing.

Is that what you call social distancing?

The plan is to flatten the curve And not to overwhelm the NHS not to make sure no one gets the virus! By schools opening yes of course there will be a rise and more deaths. It doesn’t matter how they do it- there is not the space, teaching staff or public transport infrastructure to make it 100% safe. It’s not safe for anyone but NOT sending kids back to school full time might be far worse. They won’t know schools back will cause a spike until it’s tried. We are not Israel or Nz or any other country. We have geography and a population specific to us so no use comparing. How on earth does anyone thing parents are going to be able to get back to work if the DC are still off I really don’t know? In my area teens have been hanging around in huge groups with no social distancing at all for weeks and weeks. So they are still mixing. Yes teachers are in the firing line here but so are NHS workers, care home staff and shop workers. It’s essential kids go back and we have to make that work. If there is another spike and closures then so be it but we have to try- can’t just have them all hanging around at home and on the streets / park all autumn with many parents struggling to work!

Yes teachers are in the firing line here but so are NHS workers, care home staff

NHS workers and care home staff now have PPE

Yes teachers are in the firing line here but so are NHS workers, care home staff and shop workers

Agree that care home staff were dropped in the shit but NHS staff and shop workers have measures in place that are not being afforded to teachers.

You agree that we’re in the firing line but you don’t agree with trying to do anything suggested by SAGE that would reduce transmission?

You think it’s acceptable that other workplaces will be working to higher standards of safety?

How on earth does anyone think parents are going to be able to get back to work if the DC are still off

Sorry but we can make it work. Those who can must and will. Health and life comes first.

I'd also like to know the plan for transport. The guidance says schools should talk to their transport provider, we don't have one - the students use public transport, they simply won't fit under current rules. I don't think you can suggest students walk down national speed limit roads that don't have pavements either. I guess it will reduce the numbers in school though.

@Time2change2

The plan is to flatten the curve And not to overwhelm the NHS not to make sure no one gets the virus! By schools opening yes of course there will be a rise and more deaths. It doesn’t matter how they do it- there is not the space, teaching staff or public transport infrastructure to make it 100% safe. It’s not safe for anyone but NOT sending kids back to school full time might be far worse. They won’t know schools back will cause a spike until it’s tried. We are not Israel or Nz or any other country. We have geography and a population specific to us so no use comparing. How on earth does anyone thing parents are going to be able to get back to work if the DC are still off I really don’t know? In my area teens have been hanging around in huge groups with no social distancing at all for weeks and weeks. So they are still mixing. Yes teachers are in the firing line here but so are NHS workers, care home staff and shop workers. It’s essential kids go back and we have to make that work. If there is another spike and closures then so be it but we have to try- can’t just have them all hanging around at home and on the streets / park all autumn with many parents struggling to work!

Exactly. It's just common sense!

openplankitchen

Some teachers are under the impression face coverings would allow them to be 'safe'.

The word teachers use is is 'safer', and it would be correct.

This has never been what they are for, and obviously wouldn't work in a school environment.

Except that it does any many schools around the world use them

@pontypridd not not everyone ‘can and will’ I have 3 young children and no childcare or support since March. Both DH and myself are WFH. It’s been the most stressful time we’ve ever had to the point where I feel like I’m now chronically ill. But still I have to look after 3 kids and work. Completely ignorant comment. Many people may have to give up work or been let go, may lose their house or not be able to feed their kids properly.
The economy is also ‘health and lives’ possibly above Covid in the long term and should now be a top priority. Getting schools back is part of that. No way to make them 100% safe but IME they are trying very hard with the resources they have to mitigate

No way to make them 100% safe but IME they are trying very hard with the resources they have to mitigate

But you agree that they could be safer with more resources that are mandated in other industries and being denied to schools?

Going around in circles here. I give up.
Although I think it's funny that you think music.stios mask wearing. Singing will not be allowed. Pe will be outside wherever possible (it's in our risk assessment) regardless of weather.
There are masks with windows . Your only valid concern is that cloth masks won't stop bubbles popping as they are not PPE.
Are you aware that it will take 2 positive cases in 14 days within one bubble to even consider popping the bubble (and PHE will need to ok it as well) and that teachers will not count as part of the bubble as we are supposed to stay 2m away. Which, incidentally, is impossible in most secondary classrooms, but there we go.
Are you also aware that there seems to be media suppression on how many outbreaks there are in schools currently - with all the measures we currently have? And that an outbreak is at least 2 positive confirmed cases?
Oh and we will not be allowed to see negative test results before we allow a symptomatic child back?
Parents send I'll kids to school all the time. that's not going to change. Nothing to stop them saying "oh yes I got them tested - negative" and sending them back because their job is on the line otherwise.

Anyway, I'm out. I have stuff to do.

It seems to me that a large number of children will have disrupted / part-time schooling anyway this winter.

Children will be sent home every time they have any Covid-like symptoms, and will have to be absent until they say they have a negative test result.

Teachers will also have to be absent if they have symptoms - no more struggling on regardless.

Classes or year groups or school will close due to a couple of positive tests.

Children will have to self-isolate with their families due to positive tests within their family.

There will be local lockdowns.

All of these - except the first, which is inevitable in colds season - are reduced if community transmission is lower, and community transmission will be lower if the school environment is carefully and genuinely controlled - through reduced numbers, physical distancing / barriers, increased cleaning, mask wearing and careful management of key points such as school buses.

it seems to me we can either have chaotic, random, uncontrolled interruptions in schooling OR we can have controlled and predictable ones, for example through part time attendance and part time remote learning. We can either have the costs of adapting schools and paying for extra cleaning, more sinks, more buses and PPE OR we can have the costs of sick pay, supply teachers and local lockdowns.

We can't have full time, predictable, 'schooling as it was' through assertion alone.

Advance searching certain posters is enlightening.

Time2change - what of children and staff that have been shielding?
Ok schools need to open to a wider cohort of children...but to do that in a way that makes it near impossible to have any form of social distancing or protective measures.... and then expect all those who have been deemed critically vulnerable, to just go back. Don't you think that is just madness?

@noblegiraffe perhaps. But face masks for teacher or pupils would be extremely difficult and I suspect ineffective as many teens wouldn’t wear them properly or just keep fiddling / taking them off or wispering / humming behind them. Yes in other countries they have to wear them but we are not other countries! In other countries, kids take school extremely seriously and don’t mess around or even try to. In other European counties who is to say the masks are actually working with teens there? I know the teens on the busses round here would think it was a great lark to wind up the bus driver with pinging their masks all over the bus after week1 or sneaking up behind another teen and strapping it around their eyes or something.
There are no easy answers and nothing is safe. I do feel for the teachers here but many many public workers have had to be right up front and centre. Many without much PPE. The NhS staff have to work around confirmed active cases and still for a long time the PPE was nothing short of scandalous. Same for care workers.
I do feel teachers should be allowed to wear face shields at least but not sure how effective they are? Masks for teaching I just don’t see how that would work?