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Schools Reopening?

999 replies

ClimbDad · 19/07/2020 09:00

A major, peer reviewed study into transmission in South Korea has established that tweens and teenagers spread the SARSCOV2 virus more than any other age group.

The study involved more than 65,000 people and used South Korea’s exceptionally effective contact tracing system to look at who brought the virus into households. Tweens and teenagers were the highest index case age group. Younger children transmitted at the same rate as 20-somethings.

This is a large scale, rigorous piece of research that proves children are effective at transmitting the virus. It was conducted in a country that implements strict social distancing and mask wearing among children. The authors say the rate of transmission would have been higher if children weren’t subjected to those measures.

Plans to reopen schools more or less as normal in September will place many lives at risk, and increase the likelihood schools will have to close again. The government needs to acknowledge schools will be highly efficient vectors of viral transmission and change its reopening plans.

Published Paper:
wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/10/20-1315_article

Article on the paper:

www.bloombergquint.com/business/covid-19-spread-fastest-by-teens-and-tweens-korea-study-finds

OP posts:
FrippEnos · 19/07/2020 18:43

lifeafter50
And for those who say 'you can't be a teacher or you would be whining like us'

I hope that you don't make this sort of stuff up in fronts of the children that you "teach"

Children deserve calm, rational and resilient teachers, not one that fuel the fear with ridiculous masks - and visors of all things!

Its a shame that your not one then.

mumsneedwine · 19/07/2020 18:43

@lifeafter50 the visor is to protect my students. DD is working on a Covid ward. I may carry it. So I protect others. It is really v simple.
And again, 16 year old in induced coma. Life changing results. Small risk yes. But the consequences of being the person who gets this are huge.

LyndaLaHughes · 19/07/2020 18:44

@openplankitchen

First rule of mumsnet. Never challenge teachers who are convinced they have the hardest jobs in the world. I have a pretty tough job but I'm aware there are many many worse off than me.
Kindly find me one teacher that has made that claim ever on here because I've never seen it.
Pebble21uk · 19/07/2020 18:47

lifeafter50 - does that mean you don't believe there is any vulnerability to any staff at all - that shielding has just been irrelevant propoganda?

Cookiecrisps · 19/07/2020 18:49

Why are masks and visors ridiculous? All school staff should be given the option to wear them. I think it’s ridiculous that a pupil must wear one on the bus to school and to their Saturday job in a shop but don’t have to wear them in school when social distancing isn’t possible in an average sized classroom. Surely this is double standards. If they are mandatory for 11+ entering shops where most interactions with other households are transitory then they should be mandatory for secondary schools where interactions are prolonged. Either masks are important in controlling the spread of the virus indoors or they are not.

LyndaLaHughes · 19/07/2020 18:52

@lifeafter50

Completely agree. And for those who say 'you can't be a teacher or you would be whining like us' /not all of us are having the vapours over a risk that is too small to be computable. Re resignation-you can resign and walk out any time you like if you genuinely feel you are in danger. Sure you won't get a reference but the school will not sue you for breach of contract. Children deserve calm, rational and resilient teachers, not one that fuel the fear with ridiculous masks - and visors of all things!
This same masks and visors that many in other jobs also not able to social distance also need you mean? Perhaps you also think the plastic shields in shops are also ridiculous. There are now more outbreaks in educational settings than care homes or hospitals. The lack of PPE in schools has nothing to do with need- it's because the government do not want to pay for it. There is a reason schools are being left off the graphics about risk- it's because they know exactly where they would fall.
Myothercarisalsoshit · 19/07/2020 18:56

life People aren't whining though.
having the vapours - well that's nice.
if you genuinely feel you're in danger - This thread wasn't started by a teacher was it? It was started by someone concerned about the wider reopening of schools in light of the evidence that is beginning to emerge. With respect you don't know that the risk is 'too small to be computable' do you? None of us do. Until we all go back to our tiny overcrowded classrooms and suck it and see. Calmly and rationally I say to thee - we could be in deep shit here.

TaxTheRatFarms · 19/07/2020 19:02

@SengaStrawberry

I find this attitude so depressing. My kids grew up in a country where mask wearing is normal, and there was none of this concern about kids not “managing”.

I find routine mask wearing outside of the context of a pandemic even more depressing. I’m so glad not to live in a country where mask wearing is the norm and I hope it never is here either.

God yeah. Imagine living in a country where consideration for others was the socially acceptable norm!

And imagine that same country having under 1000 coronavirus deaths! Must be an absolute hell hole!

GrinGrin

TaxTheRatFarms · 19/07/2020 19:07

@mumsneedwine your students sound brilliant! Smile

sunseekin · 19/07/2020 19:07

My first head of department with used to talk a lot about learners being ready. He said unless they were ready, it was very hard to get through.

He worked with this (he used to do breakfast revision classes when the panic set in even!) and he got amazing results. A true legend and many people’s best teacher I’m sure.

Maybe the government is cleverer than we realise. We’ve just finished home school and I don’t think a lot of parents can cope with the idea of anymore - my (cleverer in many ways) OH is in this category and he’s been working upstairs 😂

This doesn’t help those that are overly learner ready and have read up a lot - it’s incredibly stressful when you have a pretty good idea of the problems that aren’t yet being spoken about in the press.

I’m going to (try!) and take the view that this is an elaborate (but poorly executed) lesson plan from the government.

Drip feeds are already happening in the press about Boris not wanting a second lockdown etc. Six weeks is a long time to explain things gradually.

This doesn’t help teachers or students as time is wasted planning for something that simply isn’t acceptable.

I’m going to bow out of this thread but thank you to all the lovely teachers and people that have made me realise that what I’m thinking is a lot more mainstream than we are being led to believe.

And thanks @ClimbDad for all those links - my reading for later! Information, learning and education is definitely so so important. But if you don’t feel like it I completely get you - me and my OH have agreed to pause conversations about it until late August!

Cookiecrisps · 19/07/2020 19:10

I can’t believe the poster begrudging teachers a 20 minute break and refusing to see the issues about teachers going to the toilet. If teachers did that to the children we’d be called cruel and there would be cries of ‘Report them to Ofsted!’

Even if you believe teachers are over dramatising about this (which I absolutely don’t think is the case) the kids will miss out if breaks are shortened as there will be less opportunity for them to eat, socialise and blow off steam, there will be no time for the teacher to set up the next lesson, mark, follow up behaviour issues, phone parents and run clubs all the things teachers do in their breaks.

I’d genuinely like to see anyone who thinks that teacher is unreasonable or whining to try working with that 20 minute break all day in a school teaching full classes and no access to the toilet outside of that break time.

KetoPenguin · 19/07/2020 19:19

This is the first large study showing these outcomes and it comes at a time when we still have time to rethink school opening policy in September. I agree children need to be getting an education and the chance to socialise but maybe we need a rethink on whole year group bubbles and what PPE will be used.

SmileEachDay · 19/07/2020 19:20

the kids will miss out if breaks are shortened

The reason teachers in some settings are having to do additional duties is so that we can stagger the children’s social time. We’re trying to ensure the children aren’t affected.

Which is why is really fucking annoying when we STILL get shit for it. (The poster I quoted: I know that’s not what you are doing)

BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2020 19:26

@ohthegoats

If that was the case I wonder if people would still be so keen to get kids all back to school?!

Schools should have gone back first, before anything else opened - starting off small, and increasing if things stayed safe. Could have started that before summer half term, but it didnt fit idiot Johnson's narrative of 1st June normality. He's a dick, Wiliamson is weak, unions (particularly NAHT) didnt get their suggestions right. They need to talk loudly about evidence (if they had it) for small groups being safe. You could have easily started with volunteers, because apparently, there are at least 2 teachers desperate to risk their lives for education, then others would have been more convinced as it was proven (maybe) to be safe. They'd have needed to have been honest though, talked to the public about risk, told us about cases.. that way we might have all been back in June, parents would have been reassured, staff would have been reassured. But no, because weak leadership and outright dishonesty at almost every turn.

Whoever told me off for insulting someone - if I'd been told to stop panicking and patronised and insulted by someone to my face, I'd have responded in exactly the same way.

..... "Schools should have gone back first"

Yup
fwiw, here's what happened in Germany:

Schools in Germany opened pt on 4 May,
on the same day as small non-essential shops like bike repair.
Education was clearly prioritised.

It was 2 weeks later before even most non-essential shops and gyms could open,
then outdoor restaurants, then indoor ones - all are still taking contact details and keeping SD today
Family and group meetings were also phased in gradually

There was a lot of consultation with education & public health experts, also teachers unions - no scapegoating -
then each school head had to get their detailled plans signed off by the local authority.

Schools had to reopen pt as classes are normally 20-24, which had to be halved despite the big classrooms.
All forms were rotated in before summer vcation started in late June

Schools already have plenty of sinks & loos, but there has been extra budget as needed, also for frequent deep cleans

  • easier to do here, because school here is usually only 8am to 1 or 2pm anyway

Pupils and staff can optionally wear masks in class, but it's mandatory in corridors
No drama, probably because.....
We've had face coverings for adults and age 6+ kids since late April, so kids are used to it
still mandatory in shops, public transport, taxis etc for the forseeable future
Large gatherings banned until at least end October, likely longer

The same process is ongoing to reopen schools ft in late August, after the vacation, provided cases remain low:
consulation & cooperation, then detailled planning, official sign-off, then implementation with any extra resources required.
If any heads say they can't do this safely, even with extra resources, then I'd expect the same organised blend of pt and online as before - they aren't expected to do the impossible.
However, I do expect it to be mostly possible.

Childcare restarted on 2 June and the normal summer childcare is continuing
In my area as least, there will be normal childcare after the vacation

Mistressiggi · 19/07/2020 19:28

I am wondering if certain posters go into their hairdressers and complain about masks - I was served in M&S the other day by a woman wearing a visor and their were lots of staff in Tesco in masks - shouldn't someone tell them how ridiculous they are being?

motherrunner · 19/07/2020 19:30

@SmileEachDay

the kids will miss out if breaks are shortened

The reason teachers in some settings are having to do additional duties is so that we can stagger the children’s social time. We’re trying to ensure the children aren’t affected.

Which is why is really fucking annoying when we STILL get shit for it. (The poster I quoted: I know that’s not what you are doing)

Yes that’s true. I’m getting a 20 minute break each day to facilitate the staggered starts, the staggered mid day break, the staggered lunch and the supervision of escorting pupils off site.

I am not lying when I say I will get 20 minutes from 8-4. I know it’s legal hence why I can’t complain to unions, but I also know I can not leave a class or supervise group unattended, so am concerned about needing the toilet in that time - not to urinate (I’m used to holding myself for that time) but to change.

Hercwasonaroll · 19/07/2020 19:33

Students breaks have been lengthened for us, so the kitchen can serve hot food at both times to get staggered lunches in.

There are other jobs that expect 8-4 and a 20 min break and no loo breaks. Anyone worked in a factory? Hospitality? Surgery? Even retail on a bad day? Call centres too. The problem is that 8-4 is the face to face time. There's then hours of prep/marking (although let's hope that goes!!).

I'm anticipating a bastard of a first term, then things will ease off.

Hercwasonaroll · 19/07/2020 19:35

Mother what happens if you need to change in normal times? We normally only have a half hour lunch at 1.30pm. Before that is lessons and we supervise break time so in theory no time away from students.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2020 19:39

When I was a nipper in the 1960s, there was a 1-hour lunch break, plus 20-30 minutes mid-morning
We would be supervised then by ancillary staff, not teachers
so teachers had longer breaks then ?

motherrunner · 19/07/2020 19:40

We currently have a mid morning break from 11-11.20 and then lunch from 12.30-1.30 and end of school day at 3.30 meaning face to face contact for a maximum of 2 hours in a row. Obviously I see pupils at lunch or after school for clubs/mentoring but that’s my own time so can pop out.

Cookiecrisps · 19/07/2020 19:42

Our lunch break has been shortened by 15mins so that the kitchen can stagger lunch time (large primary school.) We are covering our own break duty too in the morning but we have a TA so can quickly pop to the toilet before supervising break and between the two of us we can follow up any behaviour issues from lessons (the children have to write a reflection of the incident) so I feel fortunate.

Hercwasonaroll · 19/07/2020 19:42

Our mid morning break is teacher supervision but no one minds you nipping to the loo. What's happening with yours now? Why are you having to start so early and finish so late too? Your head seems a bit mad.

motherrunner · 19/07/2020 19:46

Pupils have always been allowed on site from 8am to 4pm due to the distances that travel. Usually they congregate in communal areas, but now to ensure they go to and stay in their zones we need to patrol these areas to ensure they are staying where they should be. The same for break and lunch. I feel like I’ll be a warden tbh.

Mistressiggi · 19/07/2020 19:47

I have worked in a factory and a call centre and could go to the loo easily. The phone place involved checking to see if one of two giant toilet passes was on the wall, if they were both gone you held on a bit longer.

motherrunner · 19/07/2020 19:48

Hence why can’t ‘pop to the loo’. If a pupil cross contaminated and it was due to me not supervising, I worry about the consequences. This point was made in a staff meeting.

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