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Face coverings to be made compulsory in England

469 replies

Redolent · 13/07/2020 22:46

Sky News just reporting that from Friday 24 July it will be mandatory to wear a face mask in shops/stores in England. Fines of £100 if you don’t (reduces to £50 if payable within 2 weeks).

OP posts:
sleepingpup · 16/07/2020 00:10

It might appear ‘solid’ but at a microscopic level, it’s full of huge holes

Yep. But it's a barrier for droplets. Not necessarily microscopic. The ones you are breathing out.

sleepingpup · 16/07/2020 00:18

At which point dad just decides to get all his food from Ocado

Tough shit on his neighbour's niece though.

Hmm
sleepingpup · 16/07/2020 00:21

Quite recently we submitted, apparently willingly, to something not unlike house arrest (or exactly like house arrest for many of our European neighbours).

And? Did you have a problem with that?

TorysSuckRevokeArticle50 · 16/07/2020 00:34

"The evidence on masks is very mixed. The current R0 value is low and falling. The mortality rate of Covid also appears to be falling. Yet the government (not just ours, this is increasingly a global phenomenon) is imposing a blanket policy, backed by civil and potentially criminal sanction, without any meaningful democratic oversight and with no defined mechanism for repeal. Again."

The R0 value is low because of the measure taken over the last 3+ months. Measures that cannot exist indefinitely without crippling the economy. The mortality rate is falling because we now have effective treatments for those people so seriously affected by C-19 that they have to be hospitalised.

"These restrictions are always dressed up in language that makes you the villain if you oppose them"

You're basing your use of "always" here on this one pandemic or do you have other examples of time when the U.K give have locked down all of society and enforced the use of masks?

"Remember, when you say "it's just a mask", that this government still thinks it can tell you how many friends you may see and whether you are allowed to have an overnight guest. Quite recently we submitted, apparently willingly, to something not unlike house arrest (or exactly like house arrest for many of our European neighbours)."

Yes, they took action because thousands of people were getting ill or dying, asking us to please stay home and wash our hands wasnt working because we ignored the messages so action was taken.

"Some time ago, another continental government went a bit further in the whole "safety" thing. The secret police force that kept half of Germany under continuous surveillance and subject to rules about where and when they might go out, and with whom they might associate, was called the "State Safety Service". (As indeed was its brown-shirted predecessor)"

Really? A comparison to Nazi's. Really???

"If I'm asked to wear a mask and given some reasonably compelling evidence that it actually achieves something, and there is a credible risk to others, then of course I'll wear a mask"

And this is why it needs to be enshrined in law with penalties attached, because clearly you don't intend to actually wear a mask, despite WHO and CDC and SAGE and the many other scientists advising that it is the right course of action. You believe you know better. What exactly is your scientific specialism?

"The London case count, for instance, has been basically stable for six weeks at about 50-ish cases per day. No change from relaxation of lockdown. No change from BLM marches. This compares to 1,000 a day at the peak of the epidemic. So it seems an odd moment to introduce a significant new restriction on personal freedom, especially since no other freedoms are being restored in exchange."

Saying it again and loudly, BECAUSE WE LOCKED DOWN, AND EVEN WITH THE CURRENT RELAXED RESTRICTIONS WE ARE STILL SOCIAL DISTANCING, STILL HAVE WHOLE INDUSTRIES CLOSED, STILL HAVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN OUT OF SCHOOL AND PEOPLE OUT OF WORK. WE HAVE NOT RELEASED LOCKDOWN FULLY. TO DO THAT WE NEED OTHER METHODS OF REDUCING TRANSMISSION. LIKE MASKS.

Derbygerbil · 16/07/2020 06:39

It might appear ‘solid’ but at a microscopic level, it’s full of huge holes

In the same way a mosquito net stops mosquitoes, or a sieve stops rice, the “huge holes” are smaller than the droplets it catches (which is why face masks get damp!) Yes, some droplets may get through depending on the quality of the mask and how it is worn, but it’s about reducing risk, not eliminating it.

Danglingmod · 16/07/2020 06:42

Not a single person in my extended family has been in a shop, food or otherwise, for the whole of lockdown. If you want us to go in one (and buy anything other than food), compulsory masks for everyone is going to help.

Derbygerbil · 16/07/2020 06:59

@HelenaDove

Misogyny definitely continues to exist in society, but linking it to the ease of lockdown restrictions is a bit far-fetched.

I’ve never heard of a man going having his nasal hair plucked at a barbers, or even knew it was a thing!

As for pubs, it could be argued their opening is slanted against men, the one thing that can’t be done is to prop up the bar, the very thing that your archetypal male drinker would have done (which are part of a dying breed by the way and make up a tiny proportion of pub users).

MH1111 · 16/07/2020 07:53

Heres some actual science about the effectiveness of masks. In a nut shell material masks are useless.

www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data

InOutofmymind · 16/07/2020 07:55

@AlecTrevelyan006

You've made some good points.

However, infection rates are still very high and if we go into winter with 100s of new daily infections, then we may well see huge increases in CV rates and reintroduction of restrictions.

But once again, Johnson has allowed so many contrary messages on mask wearing

PurpleDaisies · 16/07/2020 08:00

But once again, Johnson has allowed so many contrary messages on mask wearing.

The government have been utterly useless at communicating on pretty much every issue. The lack of clarity is so dangerous.

I don’t think compulsory mask wearing in shops is the right decision but Boris does, so they all need to be out there selling it with one consistent message. At the moment it’s an embarrassment.

sleepingpup · 16/07/2020 08:22

*The government have been utterly useless at communicating on pretty much every issue. The lack of clarity is so dangerous.
*
We'll have to disagree on the mask thing but couldn't agree more with this.

Chessie678 · 16/07/2020 09:41

@AlecTrevelyan006
I agree with a lot of what you have said.

Essentially this is about the libertarian value system being fundamentally different to the one which most people are espousing at the moment though. You have two competing values - liberty and security. Libertarians will put more emphasis on the former whereas the prevailing view at the moment seems to be that any restriction on personal freedom is justified if it protects or might protect life. I think a lot of people reading this thread will think "of course life is more important than freedom, particularly freedom not to wear a mask". but the libertarian view is that freedom, sometimes even freedom to do or not do relatively trivial things, protects us from tyranny which would be worse in the long run. This is clearly all a matter of degree and few would argue for absolute freedom and the question is where masks fall on that spectrum.

I believe that there are some freedoms which are so fundamental that they should never be removed and other freedoms which we should only restrict to as limited a degree as possible where there is compelling evidence of the benefit of doing so. I'd put masks in the second category - i.e. I think criminalisation of not wearing a mask would only be justified if there was compelling evidence that the law in question would save lives and if it was introduced on a very temporary basis with a clear framework for review. I think such a law might have met that test earlier in the pandemic but doesn't now. I've seen various people on here say, even if masks don't help, what's the harm. The libertarian view is that there is always a downside to restricting freedom even if it's a freedom which you don't personally want or use which is why a careful balancing act is required.

What I am worried about is not so much wearing a mask as where it leads and the attitude to personal freedom behind the way it has been introduced. Right now, me wearing a mask in a shop, is highly highly unlikely to stop anyone else dying or becoming seriously ill so, if masks are justified now, when won't they be justified? It begs the question of what else people would support if there was a tiny chance of it protecting others. The Chinese social credit system etc. could be justified on similar logic for example.

I think the messaging has probably been so mixed because Boris is a bit of a libertarian and has been reluctant to bring in this measure so I'm not hugely worried about a slippery slope to complete authoritarianism in this instance but just trying to explain why this is a political / philosophical issue for some.

sleepingpup · 16/07/2020 10:18

I think the messaging has probably been so mixed because Boris is a bit of a libertarian and has been reluctant to bring in this measure so I'm not hugely worried about a slippery slope to complete authoritarianism in this instance but just trying to explain why this is a political / philosophical issue for some.*

very interesting post.

InOutofmymind · 16/07/2020 11:18

I think the messaging has probably been so mixed because Boris is a bit of a libertarian

Incredible anyone believes this MSM right wing crap.

Look what he did with Parliament last year? the Russian election influence report, which should have been published before the last GE... and now with the Intelligence committee and attempting (and failing) to shoehorn Grayling into its chair..... chucking the winner (Julian Lewis) out of the Tory party and quite likely to have Lewis removed from the 'chair too.

Behind that buffoonery, Johnson is a calculating, spiteful and nasty piece of work.

If none of the above convinces you.... in RL if you knew a man who had fathered 7 children from 5 different women, cheated on his ex wife & had nothing to with some of his offspring, would you Marry, Snog or Avoid?

Chessie678 · 16/07/2020 11:43

@InOutofmymind

I didn’t say I liked him or approve of his relationship history. Just that historically he’s generally been against too much state intervention on most issues. If he wasn’t prime minister right now I doubt he would be in favour of mandatory masks.

InOutofmymind · 16/07/2020 12:23

@Chessie678

My point is he is no libertarian, its just an act... to be liked or to get power.
His actions speak far louder than his words

He would favour or not mask wearing dependent on what is popular.

sleepingpup · 16/07/2020 12:26

He would favour or not mask wearing dependent on what is popular.

Yep. And then duck responsibility for the outcomes.

InOutofmymind · 16/07/2020 12:37

Fwiw Johnson voted against smoking bans, never voted to support same sex marriages, voted against human rights and more equality.

Voted against EU citizens being able to stay here after Brexit, voted against extra help for HD tenants and voted against extra help to the disabled....
...and more restrictions on trade unions.

www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10999/boris_johnson/uxbridge_and_south_ruislip/votes

Very Libertarian!!! NOT!

Chessie678 · 16/07/2020 12:44

@InOutofmymind
Fair enough. I agree that he’s also a populist which is apparent from the way that he’s been implementing policy as the public demands it throughout the pandemic. I think his personal views tend towards the libertarian but he’s quite willing to put them aside for the sake of popularity. I’m not sure libertarianism is much of a vote winner at the moment.

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