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Face coverings to be made compulsory in England

469 replies

Redolent · 13/07/2020 22:46

Sky News just reporting that from Friday 24 July it will be mandatory to wear a face mask in shops/stores in England. Fines of £100 if you don’t (reduces to £50 if payable within 2 weeks).

OP posts:
AlecTrevelyan006 · 15/07/2020 19:33

Supermarkets and some shops have been open all through lockdown. Non-essential retail reopened on 15 June. So, why if face coverings are necessary, have infections and deaths continued to fall?

Daily new positive tests and deaths

This week
Monday 13 July - 530 / 11
Tuesday 14 July - 398 / 138
Wednesday 15 July - 538 / 85
3 day total - 1,466 / 234

The first three days of non-essential retail reopening
Monday 15 June - 874 / 38
Tuesday 16 June - 994 / 236
Wednesday 17 June - 912 / 184
3 day total - 2,780 / 458

HeIenaDove · 15/07/2020 20:24

Hey @sleepingpup Speaking of other countries The Sequel

Dr Louise Raw
@LouiseRawAuthor
·
5m
In Italy, quality masks were given out FREE at pharmacies or sold for a few pence.
Their Gvt could manage it.
Ours could easily manage it too.

Instead it’s a profiteering free for all.

Many cheaper masks slip down/ don’t fit securely, so won’t work well.

twitter.com/LouiseRawAuthor/status/1283480584501821440?s=20

InOutofmymind · 15/07/2020 21:16

@AlecTrevelyan006

500 infections per day and well over 500 deaths per week, is nothing to celebrate, the rate of decline is slow.

ONS infection figures are many times higher.

Face coverings should have been introduced months ago and they should be free or have set price controls.

Derbygerbil · 15/07/2020 22:15

@AlecTrevelyan006

I think the Government are looking to try and change the culture on face mask wearing, and make it the norm rather than the exception, and as part of ensuring that we “stay alert”. It’s clear from some of the posts on here that many people are drifting back to normality in their pre-March social interactions, and that if left to drift, the social distancing that has occurred in most shops (which would explain the lack of increase) would likely steadily erode, and more prolonged, closer encountered with people, especially strangers, would increase.

The Government could say “hopefully it will all be ok, and perhaps our scientists are wrong and it really is all over! Let’s presume they are and let everyone just get on with it now, as we’re all bored of this”

....Or they could take action that prevented future infection growth and create good habits for the autumn and winter ahead, enabling still more social and business interaction and restarting education whilst minimising the risk of the virus taking hold again as it had done in many US states.

The first would be playing Russian Roulette with the U.K. health and economy (only with 5 out of 6 barrels loaded!)....

sleepingpup · 15/07/2020 22:43

Or they could take action that prevented future infection growth and create good habits for the autumn and winter ahead, enabling still more social and business interaction and restarting education whilst minimising the risk of the virus taking hold again as it had done in many US states.

This ^

AlecTrevelyan006 · 15/07/2020 22:48

the mandatory wearing of face covering in shops is nothing to do with 'The science' and everything to do with social conditioning and political expediency.

It's another classic case of legislation on the hoof, with no thought how you back out of it.

The evidence says risk is at its lowest level since it started now. To back pedal will require close to or zero risk. That isn't possible. There will always be risk. So unwinding isn't possible. Any prime minister doing so will be accused of genocide.

Even in sensible Germany, their heath minister says they should continue with masks until CV19 has "gone away". You would hope that people in these positions had some intelligence, but it seems not.

In years to come we will look back in wonder to a time when no masks were worn, people gathered in crowds, went to events, smiled at each other, and hugged each other.

TorysSuckRevokeArticle50 · 15/07/2020 22:58

@AlecTrevelyan006

Cases and deaths have fallen because

  • non essential shops have been closed
  • social distancing is in place so less people are allowed in the shops that are open, more people are working from home, schools have been closed or delivering limited places
  • people have been staying home unless they NEED to go out
  • hospitality and tourism has been closed
  • travel has been significantly reduced
  • public transport usage has been significantly reduced

If you want to open all shops, reduce social distancing, put schools back full time, go to the pub, travel on planes, stay in hotels and use the train/bus then you need to put in place alternative mitigation and that mitigation is masks/face coverings.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 15/07/2020 23:03

how does wearing a mask in a shop help you to open up a school?

HipTightOnions · 15/07/2020 23:08

how does wearing a mask in a shop help you to open up a school?

Keeping the number infections low in general society is the only protection schools have - that seems to be the deal.

TorysSuckRevokeArticle50 · 15/07/2020 23:11

Because it reduces transmission in the community which reduces the likelihood of infecting the children who attend school.

Are you really incapable of linking activities?

Here's an example:

Dad goes shopping at Tesco where a mask denier coughs and breathes all over the shop.

Dad gets CV but doesn't know immediately so goes about his normal business, infecting little Daisy and Johnny.

Daisy and Johnny are in year 1 and year 3 at their lovely local primary school. They're friendly happy playful kids who don't really understand social distancing. So they hug, play fight and sit close to their friends. Daisy also gets a bit upset sometimes as she's only little so nice Mrs Smith her TA gives her a cuddle and tells her all will be well with the world.

Unfortunately nice Mrs Smith catches CV from Daisy, as do little Rupert and Max in Johnny's class.

Rupert's nan is in a bubble with him and his mum, his nan is 83 with heart disease...................

Can you see how a mask in Tesco might affect a school?

AlecTrevelyan006 · 15/07/2020 23:18

But dad has already been going to Tesco for the past four months during which time the chances of him meeting someone with coronavirus has decreased every time

sleepingpup · 15/07/2020 23:22

how does wearing a mask in a shop help you to open up a school?

If you reduce transmission in areas where people gather you will be keeping the rates down generally.

Schools will be among the hardest places to ensure social distancing so lower rates across the board allow them to open.

Iverunoutofnames · 15/07/2020 23:24

But it’s okay if Dad goes to the pub with his mates?

verybritishproblems · 15/07/2020 23:29

I love the fact you need a mask to go in a shop but a cafe with uncovered cakes that people can breathe and cough over? Nah fill your boots Confused

TorysSuckRevokeArticle50 · 15/07/2020 23:32

And to go back to my first post, the reason risk has been reducing is because of lockdown, social distancing..........

When you take that away you go back to a prime environment for increased transmission. Unless. You. Wear. A. Mask

MH1111 · 15/07/2020 23:34

Most masks are completely useless. Unless they’re surgical grade

AlecTrevelyan006 · 15/07/2020 23:36

We have already removed many restrictions and the risk of catching coronavirus has fallen

If wearing a face coverings in a shop is so effective at reducing infections in schools why not just make them compulsory for teachers and pupils?

HeIenaDove · 15/07/2020 23:36

But it’s okay if Dad goes to the pub with his mates

Or to the golf course
Or to the barbers to get his nose hairs plucked.

Shopping.................mostly done by women..............wear a mask

Need a facial wax....................not allowed and yet..............see above.

This lockdown and the easing of it has been misogynistic right the way through.

sleepingpup · 15/07/2020 23:38

But dad has already been going to Tesco for the past four months during which time the chances of him meeting someone with coronavirus has decreased every time

One day at the end of August someone pushes past him for the the last pack of tesco finest lincolnshire sausages and breathes into his close vicinity.

That person just got back from Spain the day before and are stocking up after being away. They caught Covid on the flight out but are asymptomatic.

Dad drops groceries into his 80 year old neighbour who has run out of milk. He develops Covid . So does his neighbour who is asymptomatic but who is in a bubble with her 40 year old niece who has type 1 diabetes. She Unfortunately also develops Covid and dies.

sleepingpup · 15/07/2020 23:39

Most masks are completely useless. Unless they’re surgical grade.

Not true.

MonkeyToesOfDoom · 15/07/2020 23:40

I think a majority will wear them as long as it's somewhat enforced and taken seriously

I hope you're right. Unfortunately, as I've seen on Facebook in the last couple days, a lot of people are looking for ways to avoid it or sharing information and websites that say they don't need to wear one.
One woman, and i kid you not here, says she should be exempt because shes self employed and needs... To answer her phone...

AlecTrevelyan006 · 15/07/2020 23:43

At which point dad just decides to get all his food from Ocado

MH1111 · 15/07/2020 23:45

Sleeping pup a mask made out of material is like using a football net to stop a bullet.

It might appear ‘solid’ but at a microscopic level, it’s full of huge holes

AlecTrevelyan006 · 15/07/2020 23:52

The evidence on masks is very mixed. The current R0 value is low and falling. The mortality rate of Covid also appears to be falling. Yet the government (not just ours, this is increasingly a global phenomenon) is imposing a blanket policy, backed by civil and potentially criminal sanction, without any meaningful democratic oversight and with no defined mechanism for repeal. Again.

The precedent this sets is that on the basis of any supposed threat to anyone's health any freedom may be restricted or abrogated entirely at short notice and without, for example, a vote in parliament or any requirement for objective justification.

These restrictions are always dressed up in language that makes you the villain if you oppose them - it's for the sake of others, we're saving lives, we're all in this together. This has a chilling effect on discussion not just of the value of any particular restriction, but of the principle of restricting freedoms in the first place.

Remember, when you say "it's just a mask", that this government still thinks it can tell you how many friends you may see and whether you are allowed to have an overnight guest. Quite recently we submitted, apparently willingly, to something not unlike house arrest (or exactly like house arrest for many of our European neighbours).

Interestingly the Greens in Germany are pushing hard for Autobahn speed limits. This is a measure that has always been roundly defeated in the past. Yet now the line is "How ridiculous to complain about such a small restriction for safety, when recently we accepted closing schools and churches".

Any arrogation of authority can be ostensibly justified by safety, especially if you interpret safety broadly and the target group narrowly. You'll recall that not long ago the UK government debated banning people from covering their faces in the name of safety. In the UK, religious freedom won the day; in France, it didn't. Ah the irony that Macron has now decreed that masks must be worn in public, even on beaches where, under another law, masks are banned...

Some time ago, another continental government went a bit further in the whole "safety" thing. The secret police force that kept half of Germany under continuous surveillance and subject to rules about where and when they might go out, and with whom they might associate, was called the "State Safety Service". (As indeed was its brown-shirted predecessor)

This isn't hysteria. If I'm asked to wear a mask and given some reasonably compelling evidence that it actually achieves something, and there is a credible risk to others, then of course I'll wear a mask. But if you tell me I have to, despite there quite evidently not being agreement even within Cabinet about the value of the measure, and you threaten me with Police enforcement, then I become uneasy.

It's not helped by absurd hyperbole from the likes of the Royal Society, whose (chemist) president suggested that not wearing a mask should be compared to drink driving or not wearing a seatbelt - as though this were now a permanent response to a permanent threat rather than a temporary measure during a passing crisis.

The London case count, for instance, has been basically stable for six weeks at about 50-ish cases per day. No change from relaxation of lockdown. No change from BLM marches. This compares to 1,000 a day at the peak of the epidemic. So it seems an odd moment to introduce a significant new restriction on personal freedom, especially since no other freedoms are being restored in exchange.

If the idea is that masks, essentially as a placebo (which is the WHO line), will give the population confidence to go out and shop then why make them mandatory on penalty of a £100 fine? Why is it, as it was during lockdown, always the stick and never the carrot? What does this tell us about how the government sees the people? That's why mask laws are disturbing, not because of the masks themselves.

sleepingpup · 16/07/2020 00:08

At which point dad just decides to get all his food from Ocado

well it's def put him off the lincolnshire sausages.
But you get the gist.

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