If face masks are made mandatory...

[CathyandHeathcliff]

How long do people suspect they will be needed / kept mandatory?

I honestly thought we would get on with the masks like the rest of the world and happily wear them. However, reading this thread has made me realise we will likely have the same tantrums thrown in America by people refusing to wear masks to enter the shops and going on about their rights.

I think we’ll be ok. The problem has been incredibly mixed messages from the Government. One day you have Rishi Sunak waltzing around a restaurant with no mask and little attempt at social distancing (though he wasn’t very close to people, or near them for very long so the risk was small), and the next day you have Boris in a mask enrolling their virtues. People feel confused.

Some of the messaging from some scientists hasn’t helped either... albeit their tune has changed - as their nuanced science-speak routinely gets misinterpreted by non-scientifically literate media. When scientists say “there is little evidence”, it means there have not be extensive randomly controlled trials with definitive conclusions.... but certain media misinterpret this as “there is evidence that it doesn’t” or “there is no case for”. But then there is “little evidence” (using the scientific definition) for many things we do that are just common sense or can be reasonably deduced.

There is “little evidence” according to a recent scientific article (arguing that reasonable deduction is as important as evidence in many circumstances) that coughing straight into someone’s face spreads infection more to the person you are talking to than turning your body and head away, and coughing into your elbow, as no clinical trial has ever been done!.... One hasn’t been done as it’s just blindingly obvious!.... in the same way there is “little evidence” that you’re more likely to get burnt if you walk down stairs balancing a pan of boiling water in your head than if you didn’t. It’s the same with face coverings... they will clearly prevent more of your breath droplets (which would contain CV if you are infected) from being projected away from you and on to others.

Anyway, this is all academic now as there is evidence that face-coverings are effective in reducing transmission.

But tbh I have got used to it.

I know some people have exemptions so don't have to wear them, but what about those people who need others not to wear them?
If you lip read, even just to get a better understanding of people, how will you manage?

I find as I get older (and I'm only 50!) I rely more on seeing peoples mouths as they speak to understand them. I'm sure many people do this too, especially older people.
DS has autism, and really needs to see peoples faces to even begin to understand the context of what they are saying.

So the two of us out together haven't a hope of knowing what's going on around us if everyone wears masks all the time.

If it's just in places where you cant social distance, such as small shops, I guess we would have to cope by avoiding those shops, or asking people to repeat themselves several times, but in all shops, such as large supermarkets, where it is possible to stay 2m away, where they needed?

And if they are needed in shops what about other indoor places, offices, museums, cafes, gyms, cinemas, schools, nurseries, etc?

Bladeofgrass

I know some people have exemptions so don't have to wear them, but what about those people who need others not to wear them? “

There are lots of transparent masks available, would they work?

@Bladeofgrass

I think the answer is clear visors, both for those who can’t wear face coverings for medical reasons, or for customer facing staff who frequently need to communicate with people.

Im still dubious that masks in the general population make a huge difference as we arent talking of properly fitting masks , people are not wearing them correctly and taking them on and off and wearing incorrectly and also seem to think they dont need to keep there distance. Popping mask into there pocket for later ??
I can manage one for 15 minutes before i feel faint so if mandatory i wont be able to work or shop , other than to nip in for milk ( keep trying to keep on longer but just cant manage )
I have also seen people with one on then remove it to cough
So if mandatory then needs a huge education on wearing correctly , cleaning etc

I was in a shop yesterday and it was very clear that masks=no need for social distancing.

@Bladeofgrass but there is absolutely no reason why anybody would want or need to walk down the stairs with a pan of boiling water on their head

If the government want to make it mandatory that we don't walk downstairs with a pan of boiling water on our heads they can crack on as far as I'm concerned.

Can you not see that the two are hardly comparable? Maybe you don't care about living in a world where everyone wears a mask all the time but a lot of people clearly do. Personally I don't think it's unreasonable to want evidence that it's actually going to make a significant difference to controlling the virus.

Please note that this doesn't mean I'm "throwing a tantrum" and won't wear a mask. As others have said, I'll just avoid doing anything which requires me to wear one unless it's absolutely essential and then I'll wear it for the minimum amount of time possible.

Ironically I think it’s those who are most opposed/resistant to face masks, and who think CV is a fuss about nothing, that are a key reason for masks needing to become mandatory in shops etc (assuming that does happen).

It’s their insistence that “it’s all over!” with their disregard for guidance in close contact settings like hairdressers, ignoring social distancing whenever it suits them, and self-centred belief that it’s all about their appetite for risk (when it’s about the risks of who you pass it to) that will mean the Government has to adopt more blanket measures by forcing a cultural change. Those who are resistant will also tend to want to conform socially, and will tend to do wear masks, at least far more they currently do.

It’s a case of shooting themselves in the foot.

@Derbygerbil

In the nicest possible way, that was an incredibly condescending post. I'm not sure preaching at people as though they are idiots has the desired effect.

@Derbygerbil that's rubbish. Yes, I'm unconvinced of the deadly nature of the virus to most people, and yes, I am concerned about the erosion of our liberties and freedoms with draconian rules, but I've obeyed all the rules and am not a dick to
Other people.

@Derbygerbil that's definitely it, god people are so stupid aren't they, if only they would realise that there are absolutely no nuances at all to any of this and think exactly like you at all times. Then everything would be just fine.

@Thirdchild88

I think your comment was directed at me rather than @Bladeofgrass

Firstly, there is now evidence that there wasn’t a few months ago, so my point is academic, however....

Secondly, in an emerging new situation, it’s completely impractical and very stupid only to take action once you have had extensive randomly controlled trials with definitive conclusions. We’d have been ridiculed and pitied if we’d not done anything in the face of CV back in March, choosing to wait for months for some double-blind high sample scientific study to give us definitive conclusions on the best course of action.

It’s the equivalent of having a car racing towards you... You don’t stop, conduct a risk assessment, carry out a resource analysis, and then develop a plan for moving out of the way... you move out of the bloody way! You take reasonable proportionate steps that your experience and judgment indicate will be effective. It’s the same with face-coverings/masks. There is evidence now so this is redundant really, but my point was that you don’t need a scientific study to form
a reasonable judgment that its highly likely that a mask will help reduce droplets in your breath from spreading, any more than you need a scientific study to tell you it’s dangerous to walk down stairs with a pan of boiling water on your head.

Derbygerbil - totally agree!

@Sunshinegirl82

I’m sorry for my post being condescending... I can see that better having re-read it.

I wasn’t talking about people who aren’t keen on face masks... I’m not actually that keen myself, and would rather not have to wear them in shops etc.... but it’s those that are disregarding Government advice and acting as though “it’s all over” - not those who dislike it but are nonetheless complying - that are the ones shooting themselves in the foot.

It was the same with lockdown. Most people acted responsibly in the face of Government advice, but enough didn’t, and carried on regardless.... so the Government tightened things up with “lockdown”.

I can manage one for 15 minutes before i feel faint so if mandatory i wont be able to work or shop , other than to nip in for milk ( keep trying to keep on longer but just cant manage )

Try a different style of mask? I struggled with the bandana type and the scarf thingies that you pull up, but found cloth masks with elastic loops over ears a lot easier. I don’t know why, they’re thicker than the other two but for some reason it doesn’t trigger the same “argh something’s over my face” feeling.

I was so hopeful when I read on Fri that masks were going to be mandatory. I've been wearing one in supermarkets since March and was an early convert. I have to go in a supermarket so will endure those not wearing masks, but there is no way I'm going in a non essential shop unless they are mandatory. It just seems such a no brainer to me : my mask protects you, your mask protects me. 120 countries in the world now have mandatory masks. England is always way behind the debate on everything. I find it extremely frustrating, and very very short-sighted.

@Derbygerbil

I disagree.

There were several posters on here who were very angry that various drugs were not being used to treat people with COVID on the off chance that they might be effective. Until it is ascertained that a drug is effective and that it does not cause harm I don't believe it should be given to people willy nilly on the off chance.

Initially there were suggestions that mask wearing could be detrimental as it might make it more likely that a individual would become infected rather than less. If that was the case and they had been mandated things could have been made worse.

None of this is straightforward and insisting that it is and that only idiots can't see it is unfair and unhelpful.

Cross post!

I agree that people who are determined to believe nothing is happening are not helping any of us (although I think for some it's a coping mechanism).

@derbygerbil yes you're right it was aimed at you. Sorry @Bladeofgrass

I personally don't believe there is sufficient evidence that wearing masks is worth the cost, actually. Especially in the way people are using them in practice, i.e. constantly adjusting them, taking them on and off to talk to people, not covering their noses, ignoring social distancing because they have the security blanket of a mask. You clearly do, but the extent of the debate on this clearly demonstrates that it's not clear cut.

I also cannot see how the analogy of getting out of the way of a moving car is in any way comparable. I can assure you I do not routinely stand in the way of a moving car because I enjoy having the freedom to do it and because there have not been any randomised trials telling me it's a bad idea

I think though, that we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one so I'll leave it there. I'd suggest maybe you don't imply that people are bloody stupid when trying to make your point though, I'm not sure it really helps them warm to your argument.

@Thirdchild88

...if only they would realise that there are absolutely no nuances at all to any of this

I’m arguing exactly the opposite. It’s those who do see any nuances, that it’s either “lockdown” or “it’s all over” that are likely to cause increases in cases in the months ahead, in exactly the same way they did in Texas.... where ICUs are exceeding capacity even though infection is more focussed on younger people! The Governor of Texas was determined to keep going, but was forced to backtrack and reverse re-opening measures... To think the same wouldn’t happen here if we followed the same path is fanciful.

don’t see any nuances

The evidence change is mostly about the psychological impact of masks. Having terrified the population, the government now realise the economy is tanking and this is seen as a way of increasing confidence.
I find that bizarre as it just makes me want to go 'fuck off' and not go shopping at all. But I've never been one to follow the herd so I can't really comment on the thought processes of the masses

Masks are ubiquitous in China because of smog. It kills over a million a year. Obviously masks don't actually help with that either, but that's psychology for you. It's the comfort blanket effect. A Clean Air Act would be effective, but the comfort blanket mask removes the pressure to act.

More evidence has come up to show that mask wearing can indeed help, and that surface transmission is less important than initially thought.

If we can stop droplet emission in indoor environments, it can help a lot.
Sneezing to elbows isn't good enough and neither is washing hands alone. And keeping a distance indoors is not easy nor enough.

But I've never been one to follow the herd so I can't really comment on the thought processes of the masses

This kind of comment is strange because you are in your own way showing a lack of critical thinking.