Schools guidance released

[Orangeblossom78]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53253722

No dropping of subjects at GCSE then. Posting for info

@Orangeblossom78

I used to manage with nursery children and hand washing.

Oh my word. Yes, it's easier to wash the hands of pre schoolers isn't it? How are teachers meant to supervise 1000 secondary students hand washing multiple times a day when the sinks are in central toilet blocks?

My secondary school had about ten sinks in each toilet block, one girls and one boys.Girls toilets at one end of the school and boys at the other. How long is that going to take for 1000 students to wash their hands, at every lesson change?

I didn't say they were insurmountable. I said some of these problems can't be solved by individual schools - funding hand sanitizer or changing health and safety legislation for example (the suggestion of which I find worrying. If something is somewhat dangerous you don't make it safe by changing the law do you?)

I'm not suggesting it should be solved by individual schools. Regarding changing of health and safety legislation though, as someone who works in healthcare there are loads of regulatory changes that have had to happen to accommodate the risk of coronavirus and this is no different. E.g. previously it would have been considered unsafe not to monitor people on certain drugs but the rules have changed because that risk has been overtaken by a greater on (risk of catching coronavirus by visiting hospitals or other healthcare settings) This is no different in that the slight risk of the gel being misused even if locked up is unlikely to be as high as the risk of infection with coronavirus if it is not used.

On the subject of the flammability of hand sanitizer, it has more alcohol in than brandy and you can light that on a Christmas pudding. So yes you can definitely set it on fire. My bottle says highly flammable on it and also keep out of reach of children.

hearhooves
they wouldn't. they would have a squirt of sanitizer at the classroom door

My son was taking his own hand sanitiser in to school before lockdown. It's not expensive!

One of the biggest issues about sanitiser before lockdown was the sheer impossibility of getting hold of any. And if you were lucky enough to track any down in a shop, it had quadrupled (at least) in price.

I'd also suggest the risk of gel being misused in a secondary school is actually higher than the risk to a child of contracting covid. Having seen the things students have attempted with chemicals whilst supervised, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they tried to drink it.

I'd also suggest the risk of gel being misused in a secondary school is actually higher than the risk to a child of contracting covid.

I haven't heard that thousands of children drink chemicals while supervised each year so I doubt it is as high as the risk of contracting covid.

I haven't heard that thousands of children drink chemicals while supervised each year so I doubt it is as high as the risk of contracting covid.
Have you met teenagers ?
THeir stupidity does not make it into the national press
but it is legendary look up the whale game

and their risk of being hospitalised through covid is significantly less
than that from pratting about see youtube videos passim ad nauseam

E.g. previously it would have been considered unsafe not to monitor people on certain drugs but the rules have changed because that risk has been overtaken by a greater on (risk of catching coronavirus by visiting hospitals or other healthcare settings)

I don't agree with that either. I'm on drugs that I need frequent blood test monitoring because of the risk of complications. Covid doesn't make those risks disappear. What you should do is to make it as safe as possible for monitoring to continue, not change the rules and make it unnecessary. Either it's necessary or not. If it is, then how do we make it as safe as possible.

So here, if government rules say that students have to wash their hands frequently but schools can't accommodate it, then what's the alternative? Hand gel - great. Now, run through standard health and safety, coshh, etc legislation and see if it's practical and possible to use in schools. I don't see how the answer is to say " well, ordinarily it would be considered too dangerous to have this in school but, forget that, we'll just change the rules".

if government rules say that students have to wash their hands frequently but schools can't accommodate it, then what's the alternative?
Or just change the stupid rules - as they seem to do every few days

mrpumblechook

Try it this way

Only you are saying that people are using it as an excuse not to open schools.

@Flagsfiend

I'd also suggest the risk of gel being misused in a secondary school is actually higher than the risk to a child of contracting covid. Having seen the things students have attempted with chemicals whilst supervised, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they tried to drink it.

Agree with this 100%, sometimes think some people are v trusting!

Re gel and being flammable, I actually know someone who had had gel in a hot car and it combusted.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

E.g. previously it would have been considered unsafe not to monitor people on certain drugs but the rules have changed because that risk has been overtaken by a greater on (risk of catching coronavirus by visiting hospitals or other healthcare settings)

I don't agree with that either. I'm on drugs that I need frequent blood test monitoring because of the risk of complications. Covid doesn't make those risks disappear. What you should do is to make it as safe as possible for monitoring to continue, not change the rules and make it unnecessary. Either it's necessary or not. If it is, then how do we make it as safe as possible.

So here, if government rules say that students have to wash their hands frequently but schools can't accommodate it, then what's the alternative? Hand gel - great. Now, run through standard health and safety, coshh, etc legislation and see if it's practical and possible to use in schools. I don't see how the answer is to say " well, ordinarily it would be considered too dangerous to have this in school but, forget that, we'll just change the rules".

So are your drugs being monitored frequently during Covid? I'm not suggesting that covid makes the risks disappear. I'm saying that it introduces another risk which may be greater than the risk of not having the drug monitored as much. Things aren't either "necessary or not" in healthcare. It is always a case of weighing up the benefits and risk which vary according to the patient and circumstance.

I am not suggesting that you personally should run through the standard health and safety legislation and decide if it is practical and possible. I am saying that if current health and safety legislation in schools means that hand gel can't currently be used it may be altered slightly during the pandemic to take into account that the risks and benefits of hand gel will be different than they are when we are not in the middle of a pandemic.

@FrippEnos

mrpumblechook

Try it this way

Only you are saying that people are using it as an excuse not to open schools.

I haven't said that.

Have you met teenagers?

I have two so yes.

mrpumblechook

But just because a greater risk appears it doesn't mean the original risk is no longer a risk does it? If you are at risk of bone marrow suppression due to medication, well, pandemic or no pandemic, that risk remains.

It's also difficult in schools to calculate risk. Risk to the individual or risk to the community? Individual risk to students of catching Covid is probably not high. Risk to the community (school and wider) of not employing infection control strategies is higher. So, spreading infection to vulnerable adults or school closing due to an outbreak. Now, what's the risk of a student drinking alcohol gel or being stupid with it and squirting it all over the floor?

So, I'd say, schools have to follow government guidance and ensure either hand washing (impossible) or hand gel. Problems of hand gel - cost and availability should be met by government. Safety - schools draw up guidelines to overcome this.

chook
If you have teenagers then how can you not see that the current iteration of the guidance for secondary schools is pure bilge and will have to change

If you have teenagers then how can you not see that the current iteration of the guidance for secondary schools is pure bilge and will have to change

Mine took one look and rolled their eyes. “They should’ve asked us.”

But just because a greater risk appears it doesn't mean the original risk is no longer a risk does it? If you are at risk of bone marrow suppression due to medication, well, pandemic or no pandemic, that risk remains.

As I said, it doesn't mean that the original risk disappears. However, if the risk of contracting covid when attending hospital is considered greater to the patient than the risk of bone marrow suppression then the bone marrow suppression risk may be the lesser of two evils.

If you have teenagers then how can you not see that the current iteration of the guidance for secondary schools is pure bilge and will have to change

I haven't said anything about the current iteration of the guidance. I have only said that presume hand gel can be used where it is not practical to wash hands.

As I said, it doesn't mean that the original risk disappears. However, if the risk of contracting covid when attending hospital is considered greater to the patient than the risk of bone marrow suppression then the bone marrow suppression risk may be the lesser of two evils.

Then in my view all efforts should be put into reducing the risk of having a blood test in order to monitor bone marrow suppression rather than cancelling it because of Covid and sending hopes and prayers instead.

I personally think survival of the fittest re kids drinking hand sanitizer. 11yo know better.
My dc1 stuck a bead up noss at 4yo at school. Had to have a GA. Now i knew what dc was like and wouldnt personally have had stuff like that around unsupervised. But dc did know better so it's dc own fault. Not only that apparently lots of other kids at the school had done the same.
Kids could just as easily lick toilets , drink normal soap. Get iron filing in the eye. Cut a finger off in woodwork and strape a whole knee off.

I would
Hand wash stations (maybe rainwater?)
Have 50% secondary kids in
Wear masks/visors for teachers and kids
Hand gel stands portable outside and ones on walls
Have to have increased cleaning of toilets and sinks
Cancel school uniform and suggest a donation to the school
I would survey if any children and teachers wanted to come in on Saturdays.
Close bubbles after 1 case
Disinfectant mats (not sure that would help anything).
Made more work available over the summer especially for alevel and gcse.

The gov guidelines protect their pot of money. They havent done virtually anything to solve issue and actively prevent other things.

Clearly money on cleaning and wash facilities is a necessity vs paying tutoring companies to tutor kids who possibly couldnt be bothered to do any work! Or couldnt do work because gov hadnt provided the laptops.
Teachers need to say to gov 'Get on and do your work so we can do ours'

But honestly it has never been clearer that education and nhs need to be separated away from gov control. It is a conflict of interest. As is a LA paying for sen support.

The difference is other employers seem to be legally responsible for their employees.

I am a teacher and the number one thing I want is a really good test and trace system. I want to trust that any local outbreaks will be monitored and dealt with rapidly.

The second thing I want is for the government to fund schools for the extra cleaning that is required.

Then in my view all efforts should be put into reducing the risk of having a blood test in order to monitor bone marrow suppression rather than cancelling it because of Covid and sending hopes and prayers instead.

Unfortunately you can only reduce the risk of having a blood test. You can't totally prevent risk as it requires close patient contact and PPE isn't perfect. They have balanced risks by monitoring less often and (in some cases) away from hospitals.