Schools guidance released

[Orangeblossom78]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53253722

No dropping of subjects at GCSE then. Posting for info

But, @TuckMyWin , 44 outbreaks is quite a lot of the 171 total number of outbreaks this week altogether. We could just as equally say that this number is very low considering all the millions of people in England, so no need for any measures to be taken anywhere any more. If that's your perspective, fair enough, but it isn't the health authority's or the government's perspective, so it's absolutely right to highlight 44 outbreaks as a concern.

@Hearhooves but as I've said, an outbreak is simply 2 or more pupils getting a cough or a fever. Unless you are advocating that we try to eradicate all illness, I still don't think that's bad.

I think an outbreak is two or more positive tests within a setting isn't it, rather than cough or fever.

I despair too. It’s appalling the lack of societal responsibility the majority seem to have. More frightening is the lack of basic understanding of maths and science. I will be keeping my children off because I’ve made an informed decision to do so. No I am not waiting for a vaccine (although there likely will be one next year) I am waiting to give science a chance to catch up. Daily they are learning more. Not only that I anticipate school will be a mess for a while and luckily I can keep mine up to speed at home and they can still socialise with friends just not in a high risk stuffy environment for 8 hours a day putting everyone there at risk.

Corridors being a crush seems to be a frequently cited problem here, and the guidance does try to cover it by suggesting staggered starts /ends to lessons etc.

But how can this work?

X group ends their lessons at 10am and make their way to their next lesson. 200 kids turn up to their classrooms which are still occupied by students (group Y) whose lesson doesn't finish until 10.15. So what does group X do? Wait in the corridors?

10.15 comes, group Y leaves and group X enters the classrooms to start their lesson, but they have now missed twenty minutes of that lesson.

10.30 and now group Z leaves their lesson (cos staggered lessons) and are now meant to be in the classrooms where group X are. So, group Z now has to wait in the corridors until 11am, but at 10.45 group A are finishing lessons and have to walk along corridors where group Z are queuing.

At 11, group X leaves classroom and group Z can get in but have now missed thirty minutes of their lesson.

And this is repeated throughout the day, across all year groups. It just doesn't work does it?

Oaktree do you mean you are de-registering?

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Corridors being a crush seems to be a frequently cited problem here, and the guidance does try to cover it by suggesting staggered starts /ends to lessons etc.

But how can this work?

X group ends their lessons at 10am and make their way to their next lesson. 200 kids turn up to their classrooms which are still occupied by students (group Y) whose lesson doesn't finish until 10.15. So what does group X do? Wait in the corridors?

10.15 comes, group Y leaves and group X enters the classrooms to start their lesson, but they have now missed twenty minutes of that lesson.

10.30 and now group Z leaves their lesson (cos staggered lessons) and are now meant to be in the classrooms where group X are. So, group Z now has to wait in the corridors until 11am, but at 10.45 group A are finishing lessons and have to walk along corridors where group Z are queuing.

At 11, group X leaves classroom and group Z can get in but have now missed thirty minutes of their lesson.

And this is repeated throughout the day, across all year groups. It just doesn't work does it?

It was a suggestion in the guidance. Your school is welcome to come up with a solution that works better for your environment. There have been some further down this thread from teachers.

[quote TuckMyWin]@Hearhooves but as I've said, an outbreak is simply 2 or more pupils getting a cough or a fever. Unless you are advocating that we try to eradicate all illness, I still don't think that's bad.[/quote]
No, I'm saying we need a multi pronged attack.

Infection control measures in place - social distancing where possible, access to shops and water or hand sanitizer for frequent hand sanitising, masks for everyone, good ventilation, frequent and robust cleaning of all high touch surfaces.

Temperature checks on arrival. Anyone with symptoms should not come in. Isolation and quarantine procedures as per PHE guidance.

Limit and restrict contacts in school.so that if quarantine is required as few people as possible are affected.

There we are. Ways to allow schools to operate but by reducing risk and impact as far as possible.

@frazzledquaver

I think an outbreak is two or more positive tests within a setting isn't it, rather than cough or fever.

No, not in schools apparently.

"An outbreak is defined as two or more people experiencing a similar illness, which appears to be linked to a particular setting"

schoolsweek.co.uk/suspected-covid-19-outbreaks-in-schools-almost-doubles/

"Of the 44 outbreaks recorded last week, 23 tested positive, up from 12 confirmed cases in the previous week."

Societal responsibility?

Educating the next generations is societal responsibility of the highest order surely?

Your school is welcome to come up with a solution that works better for your environment.

Except that schools aren't allowed to use the full scope because the government has put limits on what schools can do and is not willing to fund any ideas that should be paid for outside of the school budget.

@FrippEnos

Your school is welcome to come up with a solution that works better for your environment.

Except that schools aren't allowed to use the full scope because the government has put limits on what schools can do and is not willing to fund any ideas that should be paid for outside of the school budget.

I read the guidance last night and I really don't think that is the case? Yes, they've said there won't be any more money. I don't agree with this, for what it's worth. And yes, they've said that teaching time should not be reduced and kids should be in full time. But otherwise, it's guidelines and it specifically says more than once that not all solutions will work for all schools and the school should come up with the best solution they can in their circumstances.

And if you can't, fuck it and open anyway.

@MarshaBradyo

Oaktree do you mean you are de-registering?

No not de registering. They’re at Independent School so I run the risk I suppose that they’ll be kicked out but I very much doubt that would happen. There is a misconception somehow Independent Schools will be safer. The majority are run as businesses effectively, if anything there’ll be less safety measures in place and a pressure to cram in as many bums on seats as possible, bow to parental pressure to not send home borderline sick kids etc, keep high risk clubs/activities running for as many as possible.

Basically to follow the bits of the guidance the government have made compulsory - all students in full-time with no extra staff or rooms - secondary schools will have to operate more or less as normal. My point was unless you have very very low community transmission this will lead to outbreaks in schools. This will be disruptive for everyone. As long as everyone is aware of that and come late September we don't have complaints about outbreaks in schools leading to lots of children needing to isolate for 14 days, then so be it. However what I see happening in October is loads of complaints that schools didn't protect children properly (or they can't stay home for 2 weeks it's not fair) and we'll all go we said that would happen and no-one listened.

I think that's fair @flagsfiend. There will be closures, no doubt about it. But I think accepting that is better than not opening at all.

But otherwise, it's guidelines and it specifically says more than once that not all solutions will work for all schools and the school should come up with the best solution they can in their circumstances

This exonerates to the government and places the potential blame on schools.

TuckMyWin

The problem is that the one point that all children will be back full time stops a whole host of possible scenarios from happening or even discussed.

and lets not forget that the failed institution that is oftwat Ofsted will be looking over school's shoulders from September.

@Oaktree55

I despair too. It’s appalling the lack of societal responsibility the majority seem to have. More frightening is the lack of basic understanding of maths and science. I will be keeping my children off because I’ve made an informed decision to do so. No I am not waiting for a vaccine (although there likely will be one next year) I am waiting to give science a chance to catch up. Daily they are learning more. Not only that I anticipate school will be a mess for a while and luckily I can keep mine up to speed at home and they can still socialise with friends just not in a high risk stuffy environment for 8 hours a day putting everyone there at risk.

Lucky you. Many of us have to, you know, go to WORK. So that you can stay home.

@Langbannedforsafeguardingkids

Cases are low, cases are low.

Yes, cases right before lockdown were low too and there were plenty banging on about how ridiculous it was then too because 'cases were low'. Exponential growth - go back to normal without protective measures and without test and trace and that's what you get.

It doesn't matter how low they are, as long as they're not zero, go back to 'normal' and you end up with the situation as in March and April.

This seems to be difficult for some to understand. There were 54 deaths on the 23rd March, lower than there were yesterday (89). Infections were doubling every 2-3 days. Go back to normal and that's what happens.

How we behave today, as a society, determines hospitalisations in probably a minimum of 4 weeks.

Protective measures work to stop transmission. But the government don't seem to care, and neither do a lot of people, so we're probably going to keep racking up the deaths. I despair of this country.

What’s your solution then? How on earth do we afford to quarantine the country until this virus is eradicated?

I keep seeing posts about kids 'coughing and sneezing' toward the teacher at the front of the class.

Surely to god, no-one will be sending ill children to school?This is the one positive about transmission awareness generally - stay home if you're sick!

Young kids cough and sneeze all the time though. There will be huge amounts of absence if every child is kept off for a cold. That will include staff absence too as many teachers have children. Both DH and I are teachers. One or other of our primary-aged DC has a cold for most of the winter. I suppose we will test them every time (although having already had to test one of them, the chances of getting an accurate self-swab test for a child are minimal) but that still means time off for the test and watiting for the results.

Lucky you. Many of us have to, you know, go to WORK. So that you can stay home

Why are you assuming that Oaktree55's being at home is promised on you working?

Premised.

Well, this has been a depressing read.

Why are people so keen to exonerate the government of any responsibility and place it all on schools? Happily lapping up the divisive narrative the Tories spin while their callousness and incompetence is excused. I completely agree with whoever said that the wider lifting of lockdown should not be happening if we want to prioritise schools reopening, which we absolutely should.

I would be satisfied and reassured with:

1. PPE and teens and adults wearing masks.

2, A mix of remote and in school learning until after the winter. This would increase workload but also increase safety.

The only reason the government are doing this is so they can say that they have successfully got schools back in and if schools say it can't be done they can be blamed. I would resign in heartbeat if I could and, aside from my kids, my career is really all I have (divorced, no family or close friends nearby). Although I'm obviously working, I miss the daily interaction with students and colleagues massively but it's not worth the risk, and the lack of regard for teachers' health and safety is heartbreaking really.

I don't understand why people insist on talking about children as if they exist in isolation with no connection to adults. Children may be less likely to suffer badly from covid, but they are going to suffer if family members become seriously ill or worse, especially if they get the idea they might be the ones who passed it on. The majority of young people would be pretty distressed if a teacher became seriously ill or worse and was likely to have caught it in school as well. And teenagers are not children as far as the disease is concerned and, as I understand it, are quite good at passing it on.

Also, most teachers are also parents, yet they're so often discussed as if they're two completely distinct groups with conflicting interests. This is wrong. I am a single parent to two secondary aged children and, again, if I could, I'd keep them off in the autumn because I hate the thoguht of them going into this shit show as well. Yes, it would never be risk-free, but with risks you weigh them up and take action to minimise them. My kids have walked to school alone since summer term of Y5. It was a risk but I took actions like making sure they knew the route, teaching them road safety and assessing their general levels of sensibleness before allowing it. I didn't just say 'Go for it and we'll see what happens," which is what the government is doing here.

And finally, why do people say things like'the unions will have a fit/never allow it.,'? I'm a union rep in my school for one of the biggest unions and it's really not that simple. My head is ok, but it's not a case of me saying 'the union aren't happy, they''ve said x,' and he says 'ok' and changes all plans. Unfortunately he's actually gone back on some things once they've been agreed and there's very little we can do. Most teachers aren't ready to walk out at the drop of a hat, despite what some gullible people on here are willing to believe, and, even if they were, it probably wouldn't have the desired effect anyway.