Schools guidance released

[Orangeblossom78]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53253722

No dropping of subjects at GCSE then. Posting for info

@Ceara

Surely to god, no-one will be sending ill children to school? This is the one positive about transmission awareness generally - stay home if you're sick! I'm an instrumental music teacher in Oz. Our guidance states that any child with even mild cold symptoms can not come to school until those symptoms resolve. So there's no problem with 'coughing and sneezing' kids here.

I wish I had confidence this would be the case here. But if we are back to BAU on attendance and fines and "missing 5 minutes of school will blight their entire lives, you feckless parents permitting absenteeism" messaging, people will be sending sick kids in because we're scared not to. That's in addition to the people dosing with Calpol and sending their kids in because they have to get to their jobs and don't have childcare cover or an option for emergency leave.

To illustrate - in normal times the guidance is pretty clear, and for most illnesses if they don't have an actual temperature and they haven't had d&v in the last 48 hours, they have to go in. www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/is-my-child-too-ill-for-school/ Otherwise parents are at risk of sickness absence being recorded as unauthorised.

My DS had what would in normal times be called a nasty chest cold in March, shortly before lockdown. It coincided with the period when self-isolation had just started being mandated for a new continuous cough, but there were no tests available. He was therefore off school for 10 days at which point the school closed its doors anyway. He only had a consistently high temp for the first couple of days. In normal times he would have been in school from day 3, because that's what the NHS guidelines say about coughs and school attendance, and school wouldn't have countenanced him being off for "just a nasty cold". Having him at home, I was able to observe that it was around 2 weeks before my active 6 year old boy was actually in a good state for learning or indeed, doing much more than loll on the sofa. It was a nasty bug and turned into a nasty bout of bronchitis. When I was a kid, we'd have been home in bed with something like that for a while, but the attendance obsession has changed the culture and expectation.

DS's illness ticked the "Covid-19 suspicion" boxes but my guess is that the odds are it was another, common or garden, winter virus though we'll never know. This winter, hopefully there'd be testing available. But assuming what DS had wasn't Covid-19, personally I still wouldn't have wanted to meet Covid-19 while ill or convalescing from it. However, I would bet the house that we won't have any sort of culture change this winter around staying home when you're sick, and we'll all be out there as usual, and our kids will be expected to be out there as usual, merrily spreading our bugs around...

The schools guidance actually covers this and recommends it sending in children with active 'similar to Covid' symptoms even if they've had a negative test.

Sorry that should say not sending in children with active "similar to covid" symptoms.

It’s the contradictory guidelines that bothers me, for example, football. To make it safe for 22 men to play football in an open air stadium twice a week at the moment footballs are tested twice weekly, temperature checks before each game and wearing masks when not playing. But children and teachers, no problem, crack on in your cozy little 200+ bubbles!

Teachers are at no more risk than other jobs.
Those who endlessly try to make teachers out as martyrs never produce any solid data, just In know a school where 4 teachers died and it was covered up by the evil government conspiracy to kill all teachers' Yeah, compelling evidence.
If teachers don't want to go back to work they should resign. Our children will progress far better in large classes with resilient teachers than the whiney eeyores that bray on here about an imagined excessive risk to teachers.
Given how cynical most of them seem about the government- it is amusing that they are the ones that swallowed 'be very scared' message the government put out at the beginning.

It reminds me of when my husband taught at one school and our 3 older children were each at 3 different schools - that complexity of getting people to 4 schools every day when we both worked full time was not at all easy, never mind when we had twin babies at home too.

in the beginning there was very little protection. No gloves masks sanitiser etc. We are now set up for this as best we can

That's great! Now that I've clapped, shared your outrage and signed petitions for you, maybe you'd like to do the same to see that teachers can also be "set up for this as best we can"?

Or does it not matter once your own profession's sorted out?

@Beawillalwaysbetopdog

Teachers are at no more risk than other jobs.

Every other workplace is being made covid secure.

My wife was working from home for a few weeks. On her return the following was done:

Flexi time so that not everyone is in at the same time

Work stations rearranged so everyone is 2m away from each other and not facing each other.

It's a room about the size of my classroom and has 6 people in.

Whenever they walk down the corridor they do it alone, or 2m apart from whoever they're walking with.

They have the ability to wash their hands whenever they want.

She feels safe going to work even though she's clinically vulnerable.

In the same space I have 6x32 kids in one day. About 20cm away from the person next to them and within 2m of 8 other people for an hour at a time unless they're at the corner of the classroom at then it's at least 3.

When I walk down the corridor it's like a mosh pit.

We've been told the way to reduce transmission is distance (not happening), limiting time with people outside your household (not happening) limiting the amounts of different people you see (not happening) and wearing face coverings (not happening). Frequent handwashing isn't happening either (not enough sinks). There's sanitiser on arrival for staff but we can't afford enough for the kids as there's no new money for cleaning. Ventilation is also important but very poor in a lot of classrooms.

The only nod to safety is have the desks facing the front so they're not facing each other. Which means they're all facing me at the front.

We're not saying it's the riskiest job out there. We're asking for some mitigation of risk. I don't think that's unreasonable.

It's not that we don't want the kids back. I'm desperate to go back to 'normal' as I enjoy my job normally. I don't enjoy what it is at the moment because the good bit (the time with the kids) isn't as much of the job as normal. We're not asking for it to be 100% safe as we know that's not possible. We'd just like to feel that something was being done to try and keep us, the kids we teach and the community at large safe.

I'm really sorry you feel like this, but it seems to me that the pages and pages of guidance just published does attempt to cover a lot more than just desks facing forwards. Corridors being a crush seems to be a frequently cited problem here, and the guidance does try to cover it by suggesting staggered starts /ends to lessons etc. What works for one school won't work for another- they can't offer a solution that will be perfect for all schools. But it seems to me from having read the guidance that they've offered some suggestions but left it open for each school to implement a solution that works for them, within the guidelines of limiting contact between groups of children and maintaining distance where it's possible. If the school can't afford enough sanitiser for all can they ask the students to bring their own? Some will forget, but why not sanctions for those that do repeatedly, the same way as I used to get detention at school for forgetting my stuff all the time. You'll have to buy some sanitiser for the students that do forget, but a lot less?

sawsajis

www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-for-parents-and-carers-of-children-attending-out-of-school-settings-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-outbreak/guidance-for-parents-and-carers-of-children-attending-out-of-school-settings-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-outbreak

www.gov.uk/government/publications/protective-measures-for-holiday-or-after-school-clubs-and-other-out-of-school-settings-for-children-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-outbreak/protective-measures-for-out-of-school-settings-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-outbreak

Everyone thinking it's going to be back to normal in September, it isn't. Think about how many coughs your average child gets over the winter, for each of these they will be sent home to be tested and then you'll have to wait for results - even with 24 hour results that is 2 days off school. This cough will spread round the class so over the course of a couple of weeks most children will miss a couple of days. At some point the teacher will catch it, so they will be off to be tested and so there will be cover. This is without an actual covid case. With an actual covid case there will be chaos - we need community numbers to be very very low in September for this to work, because it is basically business as usual in secondary. If community numbers aren't very very low then expect many school outbreaks and all the issues that will cause.

Sorry was posted as two links...not sure what happened, I'll try again.

For sawsajis

www.gov.uk/government/publications/protective-measures-for-holiday-or-after-school-clubs-and-other-out-of-school-settings-for-children-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-outbreak/protective-measures-for-out-of-school-settings-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-outbreak

we need community numbers to be very very low in September for this to work

They're already low.

And guide for parents.

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-for-parents-and-carers-of-children-attending-out-of-school-settings-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-outbreak/guidance-for-parents-and-carers-of-children-attending-out-of-school-settings-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-outbreak

The guidance published yesterday stated that teachers are no more at risk than other jobs, and quotes as proof an infographic about the relative risk from exposure by occupation, produced by the ONS.

However, when you look at primary teaching (yellow circle) compared to care workers (marked and labelled) I'm not sure I agree that they need PPE and we don't. Right there it shows it's a more risky job according to their own information. I can't understand why the government have deliberately linked to ONS guidance that disproves their own point.

@Ceara

Surely to god, no-one will be sending ill children to school? This is the one positive about transmission awareness generally - stay home if you're sick! I'm an instrumental music teacher in Oz. Our guidance states that any child with even mild cold symptoms can not come to school until those symptoms resolve. So there's no problem with 'coughing and sneezing' kids here.

I wish I had confidence this would be the case here. But if we are back to BAU on attendance and fines and "missing 5 minutes of school will blight their entire lives, you feckless parents permitting absenteeism" messaging, people will be sending sick kids in because we're scared not to. That's in addition to the people dosing with Calpol and sending their kids in because they have to get to their jobs and don't have childcare cover or an option for emergency leave.

To illustrate - in normal times the guidance is pretty clear, and for most illnesses if they don't have an actual temperature and they haven't had d&v in the last 48 hours, they have to go in. www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/is-my-child-too-ill-for-school/ Otherwise parents are at risk of sickness absence being recorded as unauthorised.

My DS had what would in normal times be called a nasty chest cold in March, shortly before lockdown. It coincided with the period when self-isolation had just started being mandated for a new continuous cough, but there were no tests available. He was therefore off school for 10 days at which point the school closed its doors anyway. He only had a consistently high temp for the first couple of days. In normal times he would have been in school from day 3, because that's what the NHS guidelines say about coughs and school attendance, and school wouldn't have countenanced him being off for "just a nasty cold". Having him at home, I was able to observe that it was around 2 weeks before my active 6 year old boy was actually in a good state for learning or indeed, doing much more than loll on the sofa. It was a nasty bug and turned into a nasty bout of bronchitis. When I was a kid, we'd have been home in bed with something like that for a while, but the attendance obsession has changed the culture and expectation.

DS's illness ticked the "Covid-19 suspicion" boxes but my guess is that the odds are it was another, common or garden, winter virus though we'll never know. This winter, hopefully there'd be testing available. But assuming what DS had wasn't Covid-19, personally I still wouldn't have wanted to meet Covid-19 while ill or convalescing from it. However, I would bet the house that we won't have any sort of culture change this winter around staying home when you're sick, and we'll all be out there as usual, and our kids will be expected to be out there as usual, merrily spreading our bugs around...

Agree with all.of this.

Parents won't keep sick kids home when facing fines, the threat of 'missed education' or when their boss is equally hung up on presenteeism.

@PymChurchBeach

we need community numbers to be very very low in September for this to work

They're already low.

They need to be lower, ONS report had 40 respiratory outbreaks in schools last week and I think 22 already had a confirmed covid test back. This is with very small numbers of children in. We have 2 months to get them lower.

Exactly currently Covid outbreaks in England are pretty much equal to outbreaks in hospitals, in the period just after lockdown, in summer when most are still mixing outside. Does that not tell people something about the Autumn? Not rocket science.

Should have said current outbreaks in schools are equal to hospitals

@UmbrellaHat

Teachers are at no more risk than other jobs. Those who endlessly try to make teachers out as martyrs never produce any solid data, just In know a school where 4 teachers died and it was covered up by the evil government conspiracy to kill all teachers' Yeah, compelling evidence. If teachers don't want to go back to work they should resign. Our children will progress far better in large classes with resilient teachers than the whiney eeyores that bray on here about an imagined excessive risk to teachers. Given how cynical most of them seem about the government- it is amusing that they are the ones that swallowed 'be very scared' message the government put out at the beginning.

Charming as ever, Umbrella.

And just as untruthful, but you seem not to let facts disturb your bizarre narrative.

I bet they love you in the staffroom.

Oh god help us if Umbrella is part of the teaching profession. Hopefully doesn’t work at my kids school 😐

An "outbreak" is two or more children displaying similar symptoms. So, two or more children in a school with a cough, or a fever, equals an outbreak. So, two get tonsillitis, or a cold, or non specific virus, and that's an outbreak. So 44 out of the roughly 32 thousand schools in the country had two or more children with respiratory symptoms in one week. 23 of those cases turned out to be Covid. And we know that 5 schools in Leicester closed because of positive cases, so it's probably fair to say a lot of those 23 were in Leicester. Where they are now taking steps to bring case numbers back under control. I think it's clear that you and I share a different perception of risk, but I can't say I'm particularly worried by those numbers.

Where to start with your shite, UmbrellaHat:

Those who endlessly try to make teachers out as martyrs never produce any solid data, just In know a school where 4 teachers died and it was covered up by the evil government conspiracy to kill all teachers' Yeah, compelling evidence.

And where's your solid evidence for this ever having been said?

Clue: fuck all.

If teachers don't want to go back to work they should resign

I don't know anyone who doesn't want to go back to work. They want to go back to work safely. Like other workers.

Our children will progress far better in large classes with resilient teachers

And you evidence for this is? Clue: fuck all

Given how cynical most of them seem about the government- it is amusing that they are the ones that swallowed 'be very scared' message the government put out at the beginning

And what message was this? At the beginning the government was all for herd immunity.

Those who endlessly try to make teachers out as martyrs never produce any solid data,

That's not true. There was a table produced early in lockdown that listed deaths by profession and teachers were very high on the list

@TuckMyWin

An "outbreak" is two or more children displaying similar symptoms. So, two or more children in a school with a cough, or a fever, equals an outbreak. So, two get tonsillitis, or a cold, or non specific virus, and that's an outbreak. So 44 out of the roughly 32 thousand schools in the country had two or more children with respiratory symptoms in one week. 23 of those cases turned out to be Covid. And we know that 5 schools in Leicester closed because of positive cases, so it's probably fair to say a lot of those 23 were in Leicester. Where they are now taking steps to bring case numbers back under control. I think it's clear that you and I share a different perception of risk, but I can't say I'm particularly worried by those numbers.

Yes, on schools where only a fraction of students are back in and are being taught in bubbles of no more than fifteen students with social distancing in place.

In primary only years R,1 and 6 are back plus key worker children.

In secondary it's only 10 and 12, only 25% allowed in at anytime and on a very reduced attendance and timetable plan.

Even with all of these restrictions there have been 44 outbreaks, with lockdown still in place in some form, during the summer and while the community is still not allowed to socialise freely.

Those who endlessly try to make teachers out as martyrs never produce any solid data

And while I'm here, UmbrellaHat, a martyr goes gladly to their death, for the reward in heaven, whereas teachers would sort of like to be alive.

HTH.

Cases are low, cases are low.

Yes, cases right before lockdown were low too and there were plenty banging on about how ridiculous it was then too because 'cases were low'. Exponential growth - go back to normal without protective measures and without test and trace and that's what you get.

It doesn't matter how low they are, as long as they're not zero, go back to 'normal' and you end up with the situation as in March and April.

This seems to be difficult for some to understand. There were 54 deaths on the 23rd March, lower than there were yesterday (89). Infections were doubling every 2-3 days. Go back to normal and that's what happens.

How we behave today, as a society, determines hospitalisations in probably a minimum of 4 weeks.

Protective measures work to stop transmission. But the government don't seem to care, and neither do a lot of people, so we're probably going to keep racking up the deaths. I despair of this country.