Schools guidance released

[Orangeblossom78]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53253722

No dropping of subjects at GCSE then. Posting for info

And whose bright idea was it to suggest that all pupils face the front?
So they're all coughing and sneezing right in our direction?

My lab is fixed pods and they are not all facing the front. I can't move gas pipes to make that happen.

@TuckMyWin I am more vulnerable to TB, flu, pneumonia and Covid19 the first three I am vaccinated against although that doesn’t give me full protection. I can’t catch pneumonia from my children going to school.
There are no measures that would reassure me that it’s safe for my dc to go to school but I would consider it if there were bubbles of 15 , strict social distancing and masks worn by staff and pupils that are able to wear them. Also if I was told of any child or staff member ( not their name) who had suspected Covid19.
As the situation stands I just want to keep my dc at home teach them myself without them loosing their school places or being fined. Reviewed January when the situation could be safer.
I am on the shielding list, I don’t think I am asking to much. Do you think I am?

I think the teachers that are scared or anxious need to reconsider going back to teaching at all.

And just how are we to be replaced? There's already a serious recruitment problem.
Be careful what you wish for.

I am disappointed as the government has made suggestions for infection control that are impossible to implement or at least they are for secondary schools. It would have been better to say back to normal and ask students and teachers to wear masks or face coverings.
Things that won't be possible:

1. Staggered breaks. As staff teach all different year groups, it will be impossible to timetable this so that there is supervision whilst teaching the other year groups.
2. Staggered starts and finishes - buses mean that if you let one year group out early, they will simply be waiting for the others to come out to get the buses.
3. no or limited movement by students. Kids need to move to different options. They have very few lessons with their tutor group as they have different combinations of subjects.
4. Students who are more able or less able cannot be taught GCSE maths in the same set. Everyone will be badly served by this approach.
5. I don't teach PE but I am struggling to see how PE equipment can be easily sterilised or stored for 72 hours. One lesson finishes as another one starts. There simply isn't time for this in a normal school day, nor do schools have enough money to retire sets of equipment. Even so called non contacts sports require close face to face contact, shouting etc. If you can't sing in a choir, I am struggling to see how you can play basketball and netball etc.

Masks, money for additional cleaning and supervision seem to be the way forward for me.

I think face shields for teachers who want them is fair enough, and I'd be amazed if the unions couldn't achieve that (although to be fair, I've found myself amazed by lots of shit on a daily basis since all this started :) ). I think you'll struggle with PPE for the kids, and honestly don't think you'd gain much from it- the little ones couldn't wear it properly without assistance, which defeats the purpose of it as you'd have to be helping them with their masks constantly. The older ones probably also wouldn't wear them properly to afford you enough protection, but is a more workable option, perhaps even just in the corridors etc?

My biggest issue is the getting to and from classes. I know that "passing in a corridor" is supposed to be totally fine, but seriously, it is like being kettled at a protest, moving from one place to another in my school. How many times would you all like to have to press your way through a crowd, like the first few lines at a rock concert, in the course of a normal day? Either we have the mad crush, or we miss half our lessons getting the kids in and out. And when kids are jam packed in together, they SHOUT. Indoors. Shouting. Very, very close proximity. I don't care if it's not 15 minutes. It's not safe.

I can't see any way to resolve it, other than to thin out the amount of kids we have in on any given day. I'm not saying this because I'm lazy - it would be MORE work to teach classes 2/3 the size full time AND provide and print meaningful work for them to do on their week off. Far more work. But it would give us a bit of wiggle room to avoid those mad crushes and to actually keep the year groups separate. And maybe, with a little slack, we could allow the more vulnerable teachers to do the setting of the work to do at home, and keep them safer. And cope with the inevitable issues of teachers taking time off for colds they would usually plough on through.

Palace marquees to teach in? We couldn’t afford the initial marquee. We couldn’t then afford the extra tables and chairs. We couldn’t then afford the heating. We couldn’t then afford the tech infrastructure so we could use the extra projector, pc and screen that we also can’t afford. We can’t afford enough books for the year! We can’t buy resources. We often run out of chairs and have to swop them around rooms. We have no area of luxury or opulence to cut. We are typical of underfunded schools. Boris says we don’t need any cash.

@CallmeAngelina

I think the teachers that are scared or anxious need to reconsider going back to teaching at all.

And just how are we to be replaced? There's already a serious recruitment problem.
Be careful what you wish for.

I’m sure each school would have to figure out a way around it. If you can’t physically be in work to teach or do any job really then is that the right job for you? If you worked in an office/shop/factory/hospital/care home and told your employer that you didn’t want to come in they’d be handing you your P45. No other work place would keep some one on long term till they felt safer coming in to work. And when would it end?

No body is irreplaceable in the work place.

[quote AldiAisleofCrap]@TuckMyWin I am more vulnerable to TB, flu, pneumonia and Covid19 the first three I am vaccinated against although that doesn’t give me full protection. I can’t catch pneumonia from my children going to school.
There are no measures that would reassure me that it’s safe for my dc to go to school but I would consider it if there were bubbles of 15 , strict social distancing and masks worn by staff and pupils that are able to wear them. Also if I was told of any child or staff member ( not their name) who had suspected Covid19.
As the situation stands I just want to keep my dc at home teach them myself without them loosing their school places or being fined. Reviewed January when the situation could be safer.
I am on the shielding list, I don’t think I am asking to much. Do you think I am?[/quote]
No, I don't think you are unreasonable. The measures that you state would make you comfortable to send them in - bubbles of 15- sadly don't allow for full time schooling, so it's reasonable for you to opt to keep them home and home school them. The reason the government has said school will be obligatory is because there are high numbers of at risk and vulnerable children who are not engaging with education, so the government has to say it's obligatory or they can't improve that situation. However, they did say that it would be obligatory unless with a good reason, and I would assume that 'with a good reason' would include situations like yours- people who were on the shielding list. The schools have the discretion not to fine people, and have already said they won't be.

Face shields would solve the problem of communication and (I assume) are more comfortable than masks all day

Yet provide absolutey no protection against all those cough and sneeze droplets that are aresoled enabling them to come up under the visor or round the side. All they really do is protect you from big globs of spit getting in your eyes from someone standing/sitting directly in front of you.

I will be in school in September with my new year 2 class. But I am concerned. There is no way I can properly teach year 2 children from a 2m distance as is stated in the guidance. I will have a child in a wheelchair and having my table in rows will mean there will not be enough space for them to move around the classroom.

I have had a bubble of year 1s sitting in rows. They shout to each other down the rows even though we tell them not to. At the moment those droplets are flying over three children. In September it could be six!

I will have no choice but to break these guidelines if I am to teach these children. I'm off to buy some binoculars!!!

@nellodee - it doesn't have to be shouting for 15 mins - I think the guidance is saying if you're in a corridor and pupil x & you look at each other whist pupil x is shouting (less than 1m away) then that would be considered close contact enough for you to be sent home if pupil x tested positive.

Whilst they've dropped the 'positive test - bubble bursts' idea, the 'any face to face contact - i.e conversation, coughing, skin touching - for any length of time, falls under 'send home, trace, test' is in my mind a demonstration of how they see transmission potentially happening in crowded corridors - what I don't see is how a school is supposed to deal with that potential level of disruption.

You wanted some positive suggestions :

• Face masks mandatory for all students and staff in secondary schools
• Money from the gov for sanitiser, PPE for staff, extra cleaners and to set up hand washing stations
• In autumn term, students in secondary schools to have a week on, week off and do remote learning on the week they are at home, this would give schools a bit of leeway to work out the logistical issues specific to their school before the full cohort comes back in January

• The bubbles idea is much more workable in primary schools where the majority of learning happens in one room with the same member of staff
• PPE wouldn't be feasible for primary schools as they would not use it properly, making it useless
• Staggered start time by alphabetical surname so siblings can arrive at the same time
• Dinner in classrooms, primary kids can take over half an hour to eat lunch. If this was staggered in the dining hall it would take several hours. Some classes would be eating their lunch at 10am

I really don't think any of this is going to happen. Covid and schools don't work side by side. There will either be declining Covid and schools fine, or increasing Covid and schools closing/closed in autumn.

EveleftEden I'm guessing it was a very, very long time ago that you were a teacher if you don't see the truth in Callmeangelina's post.

I'm disgusted that the government is not providing any extra funding for schools. How will they be able to afford all the extra cleaning, the extra staff needed for staggered lunchtimes, extra basins etc.

I'm not sure how staggered start/finish times with parents SDing will work at my DD's 5 form entry school. That's 45 bubbles to be kept separate. I also thought they would keep them in their classrooms for lunch (packed lunch provided by home or school for those on FSM). Keeping 45 bubbles separate in the 2 halls will be difficult!

EveleftEden: "I’m sure each school would have to figure out a way around it. If you can’t physically be in work to teach or do any job really then is that the right job for you? If you worked in an office/shop/factory/hospital/care home and told your employer that you didn’t want to come in they’d be handing you your P45. No other work place would keep some one on long term till they felt safer coming in to work. And when would it end?"

"No body is irreplaceable in the work place."

Thus proving my point about people who don't know anything about schools coming on here and mouthing off about it. Yes, I too have heard the old cliche about nobody being irreplaceable, but that doesn't hold much water when there is a national shortage of qualified teachers. So, what is already happening, and will do much more frequently in future is that YOUR child will be taught by TAs and unqualified teachers or, at best, a succession of supply teachers.
Even if you were prepared to overlook that in the early years, is that what you want for the GCSE and A' Level years?

Fines should go out of the window. That way, those who can homeschool without losing the placement can and there will at least be less children in school. Just pondering?

I think the guidance is saying if you're in a corridor and pupil x & you look at each other whist pupil x is shouting (less than 1m away) then that would be considered close contact enough for you to be sent home if pupil x tested positive.

That’s assuming pupil x could a) recognise and b) remember everyone who was in range.
Or that you a) recognise pupil x, b) are later informed pupil x has been sent home and c) remember that pupil x was one of the shouty ones yesterday.

@cansu

I am disappointed as the government has made suggestions for infection control that are impossible to implement or at least they are for secondary schools. It would have been better to say back to normal and ask students and teachers to wear masks or face coverings. Things that won't be possible:

1. Staggered breaks. As staff teach all different year groups, it will be impossible to timetable this so that there is supervision whilst teaching the other year groups.
2. Staggered starts and finishes - buses mean that if you let one year group out early, they will simply be waiting for the others to come out to get the buses.
3. no or limited movement by students. Kids need to move to different options. They have very few lessons with their tutor group as they have different combinations of subjects.
4. Students who are more able or less able cannot be taught GCSE maths in the same set. Everyone will be badly served by this approach.
5. I don't teach PE but I am struggling to see how PE equipment can be easily sterilised or stored for 72 hours. One lesson finishes as another one starts. There simply isn't time for this in a normal school day, nor do schools have enough money to retire sets of equipment. Even so called non contacts sports require close face to face contact, shouting etc. If you can't sing in a choir, I am struggling to see how you can play basketball and netball etc.

Masks, money for additional cleaning and supervision seem to be the way forward for me.

I’m really worried for September as a teacher, but to address some of these points.

1. Yes, staggered breaks will give us a lot more break and lunch duties to do
2. The guidance mentions school buses where different year groups have to sit together to minimise crossing between year group bubbles. I’m not saying this will prevent much, but it is addressed and presumably is better than nothing (I feel imo a lot of the guidance is ‘well, it’s better than nothing’)
3. Yup, that’s a tricky one
4. The guidance is for year group bubbles in secondary not class bubbles, so students can be in specific sets for different subjects and still stay in their year group bubble
5. The guidance says these items must either be left for 48 hours (72 for plastic) between bubbles OR thoroughly cleaned. If they are cleaned they can be used by another bubble straight after. Obviously this gives logistical issues for how and when will they be cleaned between lessons and bubbles. I’m sure there will be PE options and sports that can be done within the guidance even if things have to be different to how they would normally be.

I agree that PPE should be used as a mitigation where it is in other sectors, teachers should have the same mitigation health and safety rights as other workers and just the fact that children don’t get it as seriously and PPE apparently impacts learning shouldn’t be an excuse for teachers not to have the same measures others are afforded. If masks affect learning then can something like visors be looked into as one mitigation option they maybe easier to see expressions etc. I wonder if cost is the reason behind this. I’m also concerned about the lack of importance in increased cleaning within the school in general and the reason cited as cases being so low it’s not necessary. I think a measurable level of cases should be given when cleaning should be stepped up as a preventative

In autumn term, students in secondary schools to have a week on, week off and do remote learning on the week they are at home, this would give schools a bit of leeway to work out the logistical issues specific to their school before the full cohort comes back in January

Secondary schools have will have had 5 months to think through the logistics before September, are you honestly telling me that they are only just starting to think about this now rather than already having various different proposed scenarios drawn up dependant on what the potential situation/gov proposals could be come September (and people say the government are slow off the ball)

Also, I don't think many employers are going to be too sympathetic to a proportion of their workforce taking every other week off for the next 6 months (in addition to the 4/5 months completely out of work they've currenlty had) to oversee a child at home or do you honestly think it is (a) okay to leave an 11 year old at home all day by themself and b) honestly believe that an 11,12,13, 14 year old has the mental discipline to self teach for 6 hours a day unsupervised or do you think they'll just jack it in after the first 20 minutes and spend the rest of the day on the xbox.

I’d be rather concerned if any teachers entrusted with teaching my children didn’t have the understanding to realise that schools going back for the Autumn in England under these proposals is a problem. Not only for staff, but potentially children long term and obviously the wider community. It’s an impossible situation and I don’t think many realise what an absolute mess this will end up being.

@oldbagface

Fines should go out of the window. That way, those who can homeschool without losing the placement can and there will at least be less children in school. Just pondering?

The reason they aren't saying they are going out of the window is not the previously shielding, vulnerable parents who will care for their children and home school them. Realistically nobody's going to fine them. The reason they are saying fines will apply is because there are a lot of vulnerable children with frankly unsafe home environments who need to be in school, and are less likely to be so as long as fines don't apply.

Cost is undoubtedly behind it. The guidance states that the school needs to put increased cleaning in place but also states there will be no extra money. Schools do not have the money for this. The problem also comes because although they say that options etc can go ahead as the kids are in year group bubbles, they also say that movement should be minimised.