To think people need to be released from the idea that they must 'stay safe'?

[TheDailyCarbuncle]

IMO people's heads have been messed with on an absolutely massive scale during this pandemic. So many people seem to be locked into the idea that they absolutely must avoid getting covid at all costs, no matter what, to the extent that they're convinced that if they don't do everything possible to 'stay safe' then they're definitely going to die.

I genuinely think that the extent to which governments around the world have convinced people that the only thing that matters is this virus is a far far far bigger problem than the virus itself. I think governments are too cowardly to say what needs to be said, which is that there is no way to prevent everyone from getting it, and that attempting to prevent it is causing so many other problems that it just can't be done any more.

I think people are being driven around the twist with the idea that this threat is out there, lurking at all times, waiting to get them. It's like a form of mental torture, with people questioning everything and worrying about everything, while the economy crumbles around them.

There is no guarantee of a vaccine or of more effective treatments. There is every chance that covid will still be circulating, along with every other virus, in 2030. You could do everything absolutely 'right' now and still get it next year or in five years.

I get the fact that it was new, unprecedented, etc. But where do we draw the line? When will the acceptance come? When it's too late and there's no way to restore the millions of jobs lost? When economies have collapsed so much that poverty, violence and starvation make covid look like a walk in the park?

A handful of people are dying from covid in the UK?
Shame that official statistics disagree.

www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

So you know, it DOES lead to death for a lot of people.

Eventually. Not over the course of a year.

You simply cannot compare long term deaths with deaths over a short period of time, and a non-transmissible disease with an infectious disease.

We don't know yet, but if sars-cov-2 keeps going on, most of us could die of it eventually, after we reach 80, develop diabetes or heart issues, or even cancer. That would be a more fair comparison.

And I'm not even mentioning the damage caused in many who get ill.

Just because you survived covid and you know people who died of cancer, it doesn't mean that cancer is a much greater threat right now.

@Carouselfish

I think it's weird how people can be amazed at others being more scared than of any other illness when those people working in hospitals ARE saying it's like no other illness they've seen before. I want life to get back to normal. I also don't want to roll the dice on my or my family's life.

Exactly, tbh I think people have become completely complacent to this awful virus. I certainly remember the scenes on tv in Chinese and Italian hospitals and the fear and exhaustion of the drs and nurses dealing with it in their full hazmats. Personally I know 1 person under 40 who died from it a sp who has left behind 3 young children, she had no underlying heath issues and was fit and healthy - those poor children are now in care. So yes I am still worried.

I must say that doctors I have heard interviewed, or who are friends and have spoken to me of their recent experience, don't compare covid so lightly to other illnesses. They take this virus very seriously, and they literally deal with sickness or death on a daily basis.

@Lweji

No. It's worse. It's most likely genetic. No vaccine. Ever.

If allowed to go unchecked, those numbers would be dwarfed

This must be a typo., surely.

Many people cannot afford treatment. I stand by my statement.

Here are the reasons the virus terrified me in the beginning:

Pictures from Italy of people being treated on camp beds.
The stats from Italy about 9% of deaths being diabetics.
Getting a shielding letter and being told not to leave the house for any reason and to stay 2m away from people in my house. I have since been taken off the shielding list but know I am still vulnerable.
All the stories about how if you touch anything like a gate, sit on a bench or touch a door handle you can catch the virus.
The Nightingale hospitals being built.
Being told they would have to pick and choose who got ICU beds, although I later saw a flowchart of who would be given a bed and I would get one.
2 Deaths in my village, a husband and wife.
The stories about individuals who had died. The young pregnant nurse particularly affected me.

Now I know my risk of dying is double than that of the general population, so still small. I do worry about becoming seriously ill though.

There have been around 4 cases in my region of around 400 000 in the last week and nobody in intensive care so the risk of being in contact with the virus is pretty small right now.

I have friends who are working themselves into a frenzy, one friend who is shielding bleaches all shopping and contact points in her house 6 times a day despite the fact she is the only one who touches them. Another friend is young and healthy and constantly posts doom and gloom stories on Facebook and I genuinely worry about his mental health.

I am still cautious and worried about what will happen in winter but we need to balance the risks with living some kind of normal life. .

@Inkpaperstars

I must say that doctors I have heard interviewed, or who are friends and have spoken to me of their recent experience, don't compare covid so lightly to other illnesses. They take this virus very seriously, and they literally deal with sickness or death on a daily basis.

Second this ⬆️

IMO the people who say we shouldn't worry, hardly anyone dies etc are in denial.

I do not think everyone dies, I think statistically I am fairly low risk.

I still think the spread + impact of covid 19 makes it a very scary disease and a major threat.

“ I must say that doctors I have heard interviewed, or who are friends and have spoken to me of their recent experience, don't compare covid so lightly to other illnesses. They take this virus very seriously, and they literally deal with sickness or death on a daily basis.”

I’m from a medical family (doctor parents and siblings plus many friends, I work with HCPs but I am not one). One of my relatives is a retired prof of medicine who has serious health conditions and has spent much of lockdown reading all the various bits of research that have come out. One of my siblings is a doctor working in ICU in a London hospital that saw a great many cases, another a GP in the West Country. They’re taking it seriously and not “comparing lightly” but also say that what they see is, as with all illnesses that result in admission to ICU, they are seeing the worst cases and the most unusual complications. I have found them far more reassuring about it than in the sense that they are at the “keep up the hygiene, try not to spend lots of time in close physical contact with lots of people” end of the scale than the “stay at home, save lives from COVID at all costs” end of the scale. However, it’s easy for anonymous randomers on the internet to refer to HCPs that they know and no one else should take much notice of that. But it does inform my own assessments of risk.

I agree with the OP in that the message that if you leave your home you are effectively committing attempted murder is a cruel one - and nowhere have I seen that message more casually thrown about than on Mumsnet.

New Zealand 'eliminated' covid for only a few weeks. They now have new cases. Which begs the question as to how long they'll continue to insist that everyone who comes into the country goes into quarantine. At some point it'll have to stop, they simply won't be able to afford it. What happens then?

Why not let the people of NZ worry about that - it's not your issue!

@eaglejulesk

New Zealand 'eliminated' covid for only a few weeks. They now have new cases. Which begs the question as to how long they'll continue to insist that everyone who comes into the country goes into quarantine. At some point it'll have to stop, they simply won't be able to afford it. What happens then?

Why not let the people of NZ worry about that - it's not your issue!

I didn't say I was worried about it. I used it as an example of how impossible it is to control an illness that is present almost everywhere in the world.

I didn't say I was worried about it. I used it as an example of how impossible it is to control an illness that is present almost everywhere in the world.

But it is controlled - every case is someone who is in quarantine after returning home. There is no community transmission.

@eaglejulesk

I didn't say I was worried about it. I used it as an example of how impossible it is to control an illness that is present almost everywhere in the world.

But it is controlled - every case is someone who is in quarantine after returning home. There is no community transmission.

There was some community transmission - from two British people who were let out of quarantine to see a dying relative. That's not really the issue though. My question is (as I said before, but hey ho I'll repeat again) how long can they continue quarantining people? For years? How long can the NZ economy survive if they have to fund quarantine while also destroying tourism?

I should add that they are already struggling to fund quarantine and there are very strong calls within NZ to open the borders - many businesses can't survive at all if there isn't movement of people. NZ is a small, isolated island. If they cut themselves off for too long the consequences will be devastating.

There was some community transmission - from two British people who were let out of quarantine to see a dying relative. That's not really the issue though. My question is (as I said before, but hey ho I'll repeat again) how long can they continue quarantining people? For years? How long can the NZ economy survive if they have to fund quarantine while also destroying tourism?

Those two people have not passed the virus onto anyone else. We will open the borders when the government believe it safe to do so - and it probably won't be for some time. The NZ economy is not solely reliant on tourism, and for the moment people are holidaying at home (even though it is winter). The only people coming into the country at present are NZers - and surely those numbers will lessen - and a few exceptions for people who will be injecting huge amounts of money into the economy (and presumably are paying for their own quarantine)

I should add that they are already struggling to fund quarantine and there are very strong calls within NZ to open the borders - many businesses can't survive at all if there isn't movement of people. NZ is a small, isolated island. If they cut themselves off for too long the consequences will be devastating.

There are very strong calls for a lot of things to happen - doesn't mean it's going to! You seem to know a lot about the government's financial position - more than they do it seems.

@eaglejulesk

I should add that they are already struggling to fund quarantine and there are very strong calls within NZ to open the borders - many businesses can't survive at all if there isn't movement of people. NZ is a small, isolated island. If they cut themselves off for too long the consequences will be devastating.

There are very strong calls for a lot of things to happen - doesn't mean it's going to! You seem to know a lot about the government's financial position - more than they do it seems.

Ok, I'm still asking the question, how long can the borders remain closed for? And what happens when it becomes so costly to keep them closed that it's just not possible to do it any more?

I find the tone of what Ardern said about those two British people really worrying. I agree that they should have been tested but her reaction makes me think that it's going to be a long time before she accepts any risk at all, any possibility of anyone being infected. If covid becomes a disease that just continues to circulate freely in the population, at some point she'll have to admit that monitoring absolutely everybody at all times is impossible.

www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/unacceptable-failure-sees-two-new-new-zealanders-infected-with-covid-19-leave-quarantine-1.4281406

No. It's worse. It's most likely genetic. No vaccine. Ever.

What do you mean?
Are you referring to cancer? Some cancers are due to infections. Probably more than we think. There's already a vaccine for cervical cancer.
And when it's genetic, markers are known for the most aggressive types.
There are better treatments and there's always research for better markers for early detection. Cancer survival has markedly improved, because there's been investment in prevention and treatment.

As for covid, which right now is a serious immediate threat. With time, due to many factors, we'll be able to return to a more normal life.
But right now, it is the most serious threat.
Which is not to say that all other medical issues have to be put on hold. Not at all.

But for the most part, cancer prevention doesn't require me to stay at home. But I could get permanent lung damage from covid, not to mention a lengthy hospital stay at a huge cost for the health services.
The extra cost of covid patients also has an impact on the funds available for other conditions.

It's nice to say "I've had it and it's not bad", but many people won't have the same experience. People who've had it with no serious consequences are lucky.

It's easy in these discussions to come across as taking an extreme side. I'm not at all. I've been out and about, stayed at a hotel, gone out for meals, visited museums, family, etc
But I've taken as many precautions as possible and I've worn a mask.
Because it's a serious threat that must be taken seriously.
And when community transmission is high, then yes, stay at home.
When it's more controlled, go out with caution.
It's just as bad to stay paralysed at home as going out and about as if it was nothing.

The OP's question is fair. Borders are not likely to be closed forever.
I suspect NZ will get to low level community transmission at some point. Even when the rest of the world has gone down in numbers.

I don't think there's a right answer for this. Just different options with different costs and benefits that have to be weighed along the time.

[quote BunsyGirl]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras One in two people develop cancer in the U.K. Much of it is preventable. I know a number of obese people who are scared of catching Covid but they are quite happy to stuff their faces full of shit that will destroy their bodies. Completely irrational. I’ve had Covid, I’ve lost many people to cancer. I know which one I’d rather have.[/quote]
Wow. Empathy isn't your strong point, is it?

My neighbour is working in a Covid ward. She's moved into a hotel to protect her family and hasn't seen them since March.

The BIG difference between Covid and cancer is the way it takes people. My neighbour's MH is suffering as the way families are not being allowed to see their loved ones to say goodbye is heartbreaking for her, let alone the family of the dying person.

At the very least cancer gives you time to say goodbye.

And good for you that you survived it. You're among many, but the ones I know have a healthy regard for it now, not the cavalier attitude you have.

No one initially knew about the link between a virus and cervical cancer. What's to say the people who survived it won't develop a linked disease later on in life?

@agentnully I know for a fact through work that the NHS were told to stop preventing people from seeing their loved ones so if your neighbour's trust is still doing that then they're in the wrong. It should never have happened in the first place and it is not due to covid it is due to the NHS not taking action early enough to ensure they had processes in place to allow visiting. The NHS deal with infectious diseases all the time so they had no excuse for failing families in this way.

I'm not sure what mean about cancer giving you time to say goodbye. Covid doesn't cause instant death, in fact it doesn't cause much of anything in most people infects. If people can't say goodbye that's down to poor organisation on the part of the NHS, not covid.

OP are you completely unaware about the lack of PPE in the UK in the early phases of COVID? How hospitals were rearranging everything? Taking time and ppe to allow visitors was indeed low priority, and not wrong in many cases.
That it is possible now is great.

So agree with what you're saying OP.
And the misinformation being spread - allegedly often by friends or relatives of people 'working in the NHS' , or 'working on Covid wards' , though I am taking that claim with a pinch of salt in many cases - is causing appalling anxiety.

@iamapixie Its amzing how many people must work on the "covid" wards, everbody knows someone who works there! I think our press need to be strung-up, the amount of scare-mongering has caused a bigger issue than the virus itself. It's insane.

Ok, I'm still asking the question, how long can the borders remain closed for? And what happens when it becomes so costly to keep them closed that it's just not possible to do it any more?

As I've already mentioned, that is not your concern. The borders will gradually re-open to countries who have handled the pandemic well, not those who seemingly had no clue about doing so.

Give over with the two women who were let out of quarantine!! That is old news and we've all but forgotten about it here.