To think people need to be released from the idea that they must 'stay safe'?

[TheDailyCarbuncle]

IMO people's heads have been messed with on an absolutely massive scale during this pandemic. So many people seem to be locked into the idea that they absolutely must avoid getting covid at all costs, no matter what, to the extent that they're convinced that if they don't do everything possible to 'stay safe' then they're definitely going to die.

I genuinely think that the extent to which governments around the world have convinced people that the only thing that matters is this virus is a far far far bigger problem than the virus itself. I think governments are too cowardly to say what needs to be said, which is that there is no way to prevent everyone from getting it, and that attempting to prevent it is causing so many other problems that it just can't be done any more.

I think people are being driven around the twist with the idea that this threat is out there, lurking at all times, waiting to get them. It's like a form of mental torture, with people questioning everything and worrying about everything, while the economy crumbles around them.

There is no guarantee of a vaccine or of more effective treatments. There is every chance that covid will still be circulating, along with every other virus, in 2030. You could do everything absolutely 'right' now and still get it next year or in five years.

I get the fact that it was new, unprecedented, etc. But where do we draw the line? When will the acceptance come? When it's too late and there's no way to restore the millions of jobs lost? When economies have collapsed so much that poverty, violence and starvation make covid look like a walk in the park?

Perhaps I encounter (by phone!) atypical people, but parents don't seem willing to send children to school, nor allow their own parents to be at risk.

Various older people I know have been bereaved, (one yesterday) but a friend 's older (Indian origin) aunt was all for pushing the boundaries, and with a traditional lifestyle of constant family visits, it was particularly hard for them to distance. She got Covid 19, and she's not expected to survive.
Second wave was said on radio 4 to be hitting younger age groups, late twenties to late fifties, but one assumes that is at least partly because they will have judged themselves low risk therefore taken more chances?

Saying someone is not “eligible” for ICU treatment because it is felt that it would not ultimately benefit or cure them is not the same as “denying“ them treatment.

But that is not what happened. People, particularly those in care homes, got no treatment. Did GPs go in to see them, diagnose them, plan their care, decide whether hospital care was appropriate, prescribe palliative care if appropriate? Did that happen? What about people taken ill at home? What treatment did they receive?

In your work as an RGN did you not come across patients who were not offered every single treatment in the book for very good reasons?

Yes. It was done in consultation with care teams and the patient and if appropriate their family. Did that happen here?

Not to derail hopefully but re the 'half a million dead in a few months', that is worldwide out of a population of 7. 7 billion and it's over at least 8 months. Just saying that because there is a lot of anxiety that is not helped by numbers being taken out of context.
In any normal year in the UK, around 600,000 people die, and worldwide around 58,000,000 million die every year of all causes.

The lockdown bed wetting needs to stop. I’m staggered that so many have accepted this draconian lockdown that will cause more problems, death and devastation than the virus.

@Bignet182 To put it into perspective, 15 million die of coronary heart disease each year and 10 million from cancer. There are also approx 1.35 million road deaths per year.

The risk is low for me. But it’s not low for people with chronic disease and elderly. I don’t want them to be trapped in their homes forever while the virus becomes v widespread. They will basically permanently have the increased risk, which does really suck for them.

On the other hand, maybe Scotland will get numbers down to v low, shut the border with England (only for people who quarantine) and open air bridges? Or maybe it will be a waste of time/money... who knows.

[quote BunsyGirl]@Bignet182 To put it into perspective, 15 million die of coronary heart disease each year and 10 million from cancer. There are also approx 1.35 million road deaths per year.[/quote]
When I can catch cancer, heart disease or an RTA then I'll consider it alongside Covid.

@iamapixie

Not to derail hopefully but re the 'half a million dead in a few months', that is worldwide out of a population of 7. 7 billion and it's over at least 8 months. Just saying that because there is a lot of anxiety that is not helped by numbers being taken out of context. In any normal year in the UK, around 600,000 people die, and worldwide around 58,000,000 million die every year of all causes.

Speaking of context, we’re in the early stages of this pandemic and the virus hasn’t had enough time to make its way through the global population yet. The figures you mentioned don’t take into account the exponential growth factor of the virus. Keep in mind those recorded deaths and cases are highly likely to be undercounted globally, along with China being less than honest about their numbers, as well as the fact the majority of world went through through stringent lockdowns, yet we still are seeing thousands of fatalities per day from a novel virus that scientists are still trying to understand. What do you think will happen when all lockdowns are lifted? Try comparing those figures in a year or so, but for now the fear isn’t unreasonable as the threat is very, very real. This conversation isn’t even considering the long term effects on health.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras One in two people develop cancer in the U.K. Much of it is preventable. I know a number of obese people who are scared of catching Covid but they are quite happy to stuff their faces full of shit that will destroy their bodies. Completely irrational. I’ve had Covid, I’ve lost many people to cancer. I know which one I’d rather have.

Could not agree more. People have lost all sense of reality.

@Bignet182 I have no doubt that more people have died that the figures show but we won’t get a true picture of the death figures until the end of the year at the earliest That’s because Covid has accelerated deaths amongst those with underlying health conditions. Last weeks figures showed lower than average deaths for England. If that continues it will reduce the “excess deaths”. The same principle applies across the World. However, this virus has been around for six months plus already and the deaths to date are only a small fraction of the total amount of all deaths we would expect Worldwide over a 12 month period. A sense of proportion is needed if we are not to destroy our children’s futures.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras I got some hibiscrub from Boots today as well as some helpful advice from a Boots pharmacist so thanks again, I also wondered about CeraVe or Cetaphil moisturiser because she said hibiscrub can make your face dry and ive seen these moisturisers recommended on other sites for a dry face due to mask wear but she said as long as the moisturiser wasnt perfumed it would be fine. So i bought Simple Rich Moisturiser as well. I use this brand anyway.

So now im all set and can go to a medical setting should i need to

One in two people develop cancer in the U.K.

This sentence is meaningless for comparison with covid-19.
It's not as if half the population develops cancer over even the course of a year.
Many cancers are caught early and are removed or treated successfully.
Many cancers in older ages don't even lead to death.

50% survive cancer for 10 or more years.
Deaths from cancer 2015-17: 165k, i.e. 55k per year.
Deaths from covid over a few months: almost 44 k. With lockdown. Daily deaths still occurring: about 100. 1k every 10 days. Under 4 months to reach 55k, if numbers don't increase.
With control measures in place.

@Lweji And what’s the survival rate for Covid?!!! 99.5%. As, I said I’ll take that over cancer any day. I’ve just read on another thread someone panicking about a second wave in the autumn because they are obese and have a vitamin D deficiency. They are asking whether they should stockpile. Completely and utterly irrational. What they need to do is diet, exercise and take a vit D suppplement rather than worrying about whether they have enough bog role. Common sense has gone out of the window for many people. Lots of people who get Covid don’t even get any bloody symptoms.

*roll

I agree some people vastly overestimate their risk of dying from covid, but then that is only people I have seen on here. In real life my relatives who are 80 something with pre existing conditions all recognise they would statistically be most likely to pull through. Mostly though your argument makes no sense to me, although I may have misunderstood. You seem to be suggesting we can somehow proceed and get normal life back on track while letting the virus spread freely.

I have never thought that 'stay safe' meant 'whatever you do, you must not catch the virus'. Of course we could all get it and many of us will, I think I may have already had it. I though it just meant, take reasonable precautions to limit spread. Just like 'covid secure', of course no workplace can ever be secured against covid, it just means they have met the guidance for reopening in terms of measures to reduce the risk.

The policy is not about individual risk, and elimination of the virus has never been a goal. It is about the risk of exponential growth and a natural peak, we still have possibly over 90% of the UK population susceptible. It's pointless talking about damage to education, mental health, non covid physical health care, the economy etc as if they would not all be laid waste by a natural peak. The idea that the government have just let all those priorities go to keep everyone from getting covid is laughable. They have been priorities all along, at least the economy anyway, but it was a priority that was not opposed to the priority of avoiding a natural peak.

Yes, there is debate about the modelling of that peak. Yes, there is now the hope that levels of T cell immunity may mean a smaller proportion of us are still susceptible. Yes, there is always an element of unpredictability in what a pandemic will do. But there is nothing to give real confidence that we could not face a natural peak in the near future. So avoiding it still has to be a priority, not just for health but for the economy, for education, for pretty much everything that lockdown itself has also damaged.

Living alongside a level of infection is inevitable for some time at least, and we should be doing all we can to relieve the restrictions on life. Most people should live in fear of their own personal risk. But. Risking exponential growth again relieves nothing. Achieving herd immunity without a vaccine and without a full natural peak would take years unless many more people have had it than we think.

In short, we can't protect the things you want to protect without controlling the virus. So to say that attempting to prevent it is causing so many other problems that it just can't be done any more makes no sense. It might make sense to say that we should use different measures to control it or prioritise differently. It would make a lot of sense to say we should have locked down much earlier then we could have faced far less damaging lockdown. But we can't just shrug and do nothing about the outbreak we have, if we do all things you are tying to save could well be stuffed anyway.

I agree some acceptance and adjustment of risk perception is needed. But we do still need to be trying to control this virus.

V bad typo...I meant that most people should not live in fear of their personal risk.

Although, if I have had it, I had a very mild case, but months on my sense of smell is still fucked and it's actually really shit and depressing.

@Lweji

One in two people develop cancer in the U.K.

This sentence is meaningless for comparison with covid-19.
It's not as if half the population develops cancer over even the course of a year.
Many cancers are caught early and are removed or treated successfully.
Many cancers in older ages don't even lead to death.

50% survive cancer for 10 or more years.
Deaths from cancer 2015-17: 165k, i.e. 55k per year.
Deaths from covid over a few months: almost 44 k. With lockdown. Daily deaths still occurring: about 100. 1k every 10 days. Under 4 months to reach 55k, if numbers don't increase.
With control measures in place.

Any one person is still far more likely to die of either cancer or heart disease than covid19, regardless of control measures.

There might have been a brief period (weeks) in the UK where the leading cause of death was covid19 for a particular demographic, but this demographic was still unlikely to die of covid19 i.e. more likely to die in the usual way (as above).

Most people should not fear getting it but they should be careful not to spread it around - so practice hand washing, sneeze properly, distance.
Because there are a significant minority of people who will get seriously sick and that is the only way to protect them, short of locking them up for months or years.
Unfortunetly there are far too many people who just dont give a fuck about anyone but them and theirs, so fear is being used to make them comply. I agree it is deliberate and enforced by the media. I think its lost its impact though. And too many people have been left needlessly scared.

[quote BunsyGirl]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras One in two people develop cancer in the U.K. Much of it is preventable. I know a number of obese people who are scared of catching Covid but they are quite happy to stuff their faces full of shit that will destroy their bodies. Completely irrational. I’ve had Covid, I’ve lost many people to cancer. I know which one I’d rather have.[/quote]
But if an individual chooses not to make lifestyle changes that reduce their risk of developing heart disease or cancer then the only person affected is them.

If a person decides to.ignore guidelines about Covid then they risk the health of others.

It's a very different situation. I can only do so much to reduce my own risk of catching Covid and then I'm dependent on everyone else doing their part.

I don't get why people are so resistant to this. If you want kids in school, your job, some.sort of social life then you have to do what you are asked. Otherwise you risk this getting.out of control with whatever consequences that brings.

HeIenaDove

That's great, I hope it does the trick. In all honesty, if you are only using it occasionally I wouldn't worry too much about it causing dry skin as long as you use moisturiser.

I had to shower my whole body with it every day for three days prior to an op and was absolutely fine.

This sentence is meaningless for comparison with covid-19.
It's not as if half the population develops cancer over even the course of a year.

Yeah? I am going to bet half the population don't catch Covid either. And if they do, so what? It's a cold for most people if they have any symptoms at all!
While cancer is always progressive, at varying rates.

Many cancers are caught early and are removed or treated successfully.
Many cancers in older ages don't even lead to death.
One in four of us will die of cancer though. It's the second leading cause of death after CV disease. So you know, it DOES lead to death for a lot of people.

50% survive cancer for 10 or more years.
And? Half don't.

Deaths from cancer 2015-17: 165k, i.e. 55k per year.
Your numbers are shonky. About 500k people die each year in the UK, about 25-30pct of those from cancer, the 165k you quote is the annual figure averaged over 2015-17. Don't divide that number by 3.

Deaths from covid over a few months: almost 44 k. With lockdown.
Give me evidence of a correlation between lockdown and deaths per million. Any evidence at all.

Daily deaths still occurring: about 100. 1k every 10 days. Under 4 months to reach 55k, if numbers don't increase.
With control measures in place.

Where are you getting these numbers from? The reported daily data are from as far back as April and May but paperwork only coming in now. A handful of people are dying in hospitals today with COVID. Barely any.

Most people should not fear getting it but they should be careful not to spread it around - so practice hand washing, sneeze properly, distance.
Because there are a significant minority of people who will get seriously sick and that is the only way to protect them, short of locking them up for months or years.
Unfortunetly there are far too many people who just dont give a fuck about anyone but them and theirs, so fear is being used to make them comply. I agree it is deliberate and enforced by the media. I think its lost its impact though. And too many people have been left needlessly scared.

This is a fair assessment of the situation.

There might have been a brief period (weeks) in the UK where the leading cause of death was covid19 for a particular demographic

Because control measures were implemented. Given a few more weeks without lockdown and the likelihood of a given person dying of covid this year would have been much higher than of cancer.

Cancer might eventually kill me. More likely when I'm old.
This particular year, without control measures, social distancing, PPE, etc, I'm more concerned with covid. Not only, but also because I could then give it to someone who'd die, even if I didn't, if I didn't wear a mask and practiced social distancing.

Your numbers are shonky.

Complain to the statistics website I took them from.