When kids go back in September, should schools stay open till 4pm

[Lardlizard]

To allow kids to catch up and allow workers to catch up on work

@CayrolBaaaskin

Yes. And primary teachers are not working 60 hours a week, don’t be ridiculous

Are you a primary teacher? I will tell you know that they are. I teach three days a week. Just in those three days, I work approx 12 hours a day. Plus the hours I work on my days off. So go and do something useful instead of just constantly slating teachers.

@Solomummy it's 1265 hours a year over 195 days for teachers - 190 days with students and 5 days (or the equivalent) training.

@TiptoeStar

I’m glad you found my contribution helpful, though the fact you didn’t already know that yourself somewhat calls in to question your...10 years, was it?...teaching experience.

educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/evidence-summaries/teaching-learning-toolkit/teaching-assistants/

You might also find this analysis of research interesting. Bearing in mind it’s referring trained teaching assistants and there are still questions re impact.

It’s not an inability to think outside the box. You have made one suggestion and argued it doggedly even once the limitations of it have been pointed out to you. I’d say that suggests very fixed thinking rather than flexibility, hey?

The issue we are facing is that quite simply our current government does not value state education. This is reflected in their lack of clear planning for September and, most crucially, their unwillingness to fund schools to an appropriate level for the past 10 years. Let alone to provide any additional funding during this pandemic. Indeed, the guidance on wider reopening of schools strictly forbade any approach to returning more pupils to school if it would cost additional money. Don’t look to individual schools and teachers. This is not on them.

Oh, also, just in case you decide to call my professionalism in to account. Yes I’m a teacher. I work part-time, so today is a non-working day. Nonetheless I’m off to do some work now and have a parent meet later this afternoon. Lest you fear I am slacking my contractual obligations.

Why do all the people asking for extra funding not want to train trainees?

Both the ideas have more merit in the right circumstances than doing nothing

God I feel so sorry for teachers! Also no, my kids go to school for over 6 hours a day, that's plenty!

It is so depressing that instead of reflecting on eat to make the edu action system fit for purpose, people who say they are teachers just jump in and say tea gets workload is too high. That is irrelevant to the debate. Design your bet practice system THEN look at staffing and other threads to be addressed. Starting with staffing is illogical -tail wagging the dog, Education does exist simply as convenient jobs for teachers, they are there to fulfil the purpose of educating children. Depressing the poor calibre of critical and analytical thinking that some display.

DS (y3) is back at school now (private) and he’s in 9-4. Normally it’s 8.30-3.30 but they have staggered the drop off and pick up times.
I think they should continue as they are now next term, it’s safer as they are complying with risk assessment to the guidelines as they are now.

My school already offers a "period 7"
lesson which runs from 3.25 - 4pm.
This is used for study support, after school clubs (different each day), tailored learning (ie specific year 11 sessions aligned to subjects) and, for a very small number, an actual lesson for those students who are taking an additional gcse that can't be fitted onto the timetable.

It works well because it's optional and uptake is high because it's a varied menu.

It's also written into the school expectations that if a student is not reaching their potential, then those students will be required to attend one or more of those period 7 lessons that have been allocated until they have caught up. This is in the home learning contract with parents.

I think this works very well because it allows extra intervention, enrichment and catch up as well as a back up. It also means that teachers can opt in when it's suitable (many teachers will have meetings, detention duty, training at this time so can't do this every day)
Most teachers in my school don't leave until around 5ish anyway, so this flexible offer forms part of their contracted hours.

However if you start to make it compulsory, then it loses its effectiveness for students (they would miss out on catch up time to do an arbitrary timetabled lesson?), you would lose enrichment and after school provision and teachers would be required still to do meetings, detentions and training but later in the day.

A blended offer could be really suitable (and is, in my school) but I would object to another lesson a day.

@TiptoeStar

For some people nothing will ever be enough will it. It’s taken me a long time to realise that, but this feels very much like one of those conversations where people are happier complaining or finding fault and problems than working positively towards practical solutions where we can. I’m out.

Did you read ANY of MushyPeasAreTheDevilsFood Mon 29-Jun-20 10:31:19 post? People are not "happier complaining." There are just many people who actually DO the job you appear to know nothing about, and are pointing out the practicalities as to why some suggestions simply won't work.

It's a bit like my mum spouting on about why my washing machine should be down the other end of my kitchen, out of the way. Well, primarily because there's no water supply or drainage over there, and to put it in would cost a fucking fortune, for little gain. And would involve completely re-modelling the kitchen. But no, apparently I just wasn't "thinking outside the box."

In many schools lunch hour is not actually an hour anymore.

I also have to say what I learnt at Primary School in the 70s was not on the same level as what pupils have to learn now.

@UmbrellaHat: "Depressing the poor calibre of critical and analytical thinking that some display."

Oh, the irony! I would say the poor calibre of your written English probably deserves more of your attention at the moment. Or learn to proof-read your posts.

Primary schools in Ireland always had and still have a half an hour for lunch. The first two years of school finish an hour earlier than the rest of the school. My DD's schools finishing times are 1.20 and 2.20

I’m a teacher and I think this could work for Year 10 / 12 maybe with an extra lesson a day to catch up. I don’t think it’s necessary for other year groups especially the younger ones.

@umbrellahat I can see why you'd think that. I think the unwritten message, that teachers on the thread know will be the case through experience, is that anything 'extra' (in this case an extra hour per day of teaching) will not be funded or resourced and will be expected to be done by the current workforce for free, on top of what they already do.

UmbrellaHat - it would be lovely to create a system that would work best for children and then work out staffing around that, sadly the government isnt going to pay for it. It zero point my children's school deciding it wants classess of 24 with additional music lessons as the best 'catch up' option if they can only afford classes of 35 and no music lessons ( imagining they discovered some extensive research on the benefts of 24 as a class size and additional music and its impact on maths and english)

The government can do blue sky thinking and change funding and its a lot of fun imaging different ways schools could be different. Individual schools have to deliver a broad and balanced curriculumn with the resources they have and there is no indication of meaningful additional funding going there way. So teachers panic because largerly 'schools should do this extra thing' translates to 'existing teachers need to add this extra thing' on the ground.

So teachers panic because largerly 'schools should do this extra thing' translates to 'existing teachers need to add this extra thing' on the ground

You’ve hit the nail on the head. The panic is not at all helpful or productive and is why it is not unreasonably seen as being obstructive.

The breakdown in trust between government, schools, teachers, students and parents is a huge underlying problem. “Funding” won’t solve it, it needs proper leadership, commitment and innovation at all levels.

If TiptoeStar was a teacher for 10 years, I'll eat my hat.
All these irritating and condescending "teachers have to think outside the box" and "find problems not solutions" clichés don't only display utter ignorance about how schools work, they are also totally pointless unless the government is willing to pay for solutions, which they won't (even if there were any practical solutions, which is doubtful).

It will be a lot cheaper to just alter next year's exams for the current years 10 and 12 and just let all the other year groups catch up in normal school time, which they will imo.

I am a teacher - I have been for 16 years now. Before lockdown I dropped my 3yr old DD to the childminder at 7.30 and got to school at 7.45 to set up for the children to come in at 8.30. The children left at 3.30pm then I stayed until 5pm marking/ filing/ making resources etc. I’d collect my exhausted DD at 5.15 to get home for 6pm and go straight into the kitchen to make dinner.
That extra half an hour of contact time with the children would have a massive knock-on effect To my day, and quite frankly I would resign.

Also putting another random adult in the classroom is, as pp have said, actually really stressful! I have had trainees, WEx, volunteers and having to direct another adult all day who has no clue what they are doing is draining and like having more kids in the class (I already have 34 when they are all present.)

I’ve been running my online learning platform throughout lockdown and still am for the children who haven’t returned to school. Only a third of my class have actively participated in the online learning, despite phone calls and emails to parents. Short of me going to their homes and making them do the work I couldn’t do any more, so I don’t think teachers should have to work longer hours to make up for what hasn’t been done.

To be honest, a lot of stuff taught in school is completely irrelevant to life anyway!

“Funding” won’t solve it, it needs proper leadership, commitment and innovation at all levels.

Funding would help a lot of things. The last thing schools need is innovation. They have had never-ending bloody innovation for decades - new fashionable methodologies (usually dropped after a year or so), new syllabuses, new and ever more complicated ways of marking. New ways of being judged and found wanting. What they need is the time and space to actually do their jobs.

Commitment? By whom and to what? And what constitutes 'proper' leadership, btw?

[quote TeaStory]@Solomummy it's 1265 hours a year over 195 days for teachers - 190 days with students and 5 days (or the equivalent) training.[/quote]
OK over 195 days, still means they can be deployed a lot more than they are in most schools.

@acsec

I am a teacher - I have been for 16 years now. Before lockdown I dropped my 3yr old DD to the childminder at 7.30 and got to school at 7.45 to set up for the children to come in at 8.30. The children left at 3.30pm then I stayed until 5pm marking/ filing/ making resources etc. I’d collect my exhausted DD at 5.15 to get home for 6pm and go straight into the kitchen to make dinner. That extra half an hour of contact time with the children would have a massive knock-on effect To my day, and quite frankly I would resign.

Also putting another random adult in the classroom is, as pp have said, actually really stressful! I have had trainees, WEx, volunteers and having to direct another adult all day who has no clue what they are doing is draining and like having more kids in the class (I already have 34 when they are all present.)

I’ve been running my online learning platform throughout lockdown and still am for the children who haven’t returned to school. Only a third of my class have actively participated in the online learning, despite phone calls and emails to parents. Short of me going to their homes and making them do the work I couldn’t do any more, so I don’t think teachers should have to work longer hours to make up for what hasn’t been done.

To be honest, a lot of stuff taught in school is completely irrelevant to life anyway!

2 observations. 1 you've chosen to work such a distance from home. Not your employers responsibility. 2 you're contested to be deployed for 1265 hours plus whatever you need to complete your duties as stpcd. Resign. Go ahead. You won't fund such a cushty well paid number outside of the classroom. I taught for many years and purposely moved to consulting and know many other ex teachers. Most not earning great than fte 30k now and on minimal not 13 weeks holidays a year.

Daft idea. Won't happen.

Schools need to be thoroughly cleaned at the end of each days and cleaners aren't going to work late into the evening.

DCs too tired for extra hours, most will have been working at home while off school and won't be that far behind.

I am a teacher - I have been for 16 years now. Before lockdown I dropped my 3yr old DD to the childminder at 7.30 and got to school at 7.45 to set up for the children to come in at 8.30. The children left at 3.30pm then I stayed until 5pm marking/ filing/ making resources etc. I’d collect my exhausted DD at 5.15 to get home for 6pm and go straight into the kitchen to make dinner.
@acsec that sounds like a very long day and imo I would leave teaching if that's what it was like for me!! I'm in Ireland...
I drop my dc to their school for 8.30 (they start at 8.40) and I then go to my school for a 9.00 start) I arrive at 8.50
My dc school finishes at 2.20 and my dc go to after school (which is on site)
My school finishes at 2.40 and I leave at 3.00/3.15 sometimes 3.30 if I'm busy.
I then collect my dc usually by 3.45.

Our school wouldn't even be open at 7.45 and the car park is always completely empty by 4.00.

U.K. teachers are expected to put in so much more and I sometimes wonder what exactly for??!

@SoloMummy lol at ‘cushty well paid number‘, oh yes I’m rolling in it.

I only live a mile and a half from where I work but I am unable to drive and walking with a 3 yr old isn’t particularly quick!

Also, why are you so angry?

@woodhill

Think my own dc also stayed till 1545 at secondary

We changed to an earlier finish time at a secondary school where I was a governor but did so by shortening the lunch break, so lesson time was exactly the same but lunch break was shorter. This was for practical reasons - congestion on local buses because all schools finished at the same time.

Budgets for schools are in dire straits as it is. I'm not sure that people suggesting employing more staff, increasing hours worked etc realise the knife edge budgets are at already.

I left about two years ago. For the final three years we were setting deficit budgets. That was even after three re structures where we went through massive re organisation including losing a whole tier of middle leaders, reducing the curriculum offer, making the majority of tas redundant, deleting posts following natural wastage. We also had to reduce department budgets to zero. So no new text books, no printing or photocopying, nothing. Majority of schools in our borough were in the same position due to several low birth rate years in the late 90s and early 2000s. The problem got worse when the numbers picked up so we had very small numbers in the top half of the school but large numbers of students coming into the lower years so we needed more staff but didn't have the money to pay them.

Rising utility costs, insurance costs, pay rises and on costs all made the situation even worse.

If people want to change the situation in schools demand that government increase budgets. Schools need more money desperately. Then provision will improve.