When kids go back in September, should schools stay open till 4pm

[Lardlizard]

To allow kids to catch up and allow workers to catch up on work

@Kolo there are many things that have led to lack of progress on the part of schools, of teachers and of parents. Every story will be different. But together we need to find a way through it very quickly.

[quote TiptoeStar]@CallmeAngelina are you a teacher?[/quote]
Yes, I am.
And?

Definitely not, children are already exhausted by the end of the day, they aren't going to learn anything during extra time added to the end of the day.

I find it absurd that everyone knows feels they are an education specialist. It would be ideal if the government left educators to make decisions about education.

Parents getting anxious about catch up time need to trust that teachers know what they’re doing and will make adjustments if needed.

*now feels

@CallmeAngelina it’s just that it’s Monday morning and I’d have thought most teachers were teaching not on MN? But maybe you’re PT of course.

Yes, I am part-time.
But I'm fielding emails from pupils at the moment, nonetheless.

I don't want to repeat others, Grasspigeons for example has made some excellent points and explained it very well Tiptoes. Do you think parents have no responsibility at all for their children's education? Should they not listen to them read, practise spellings or times tables or do a science experiment? Observe things while out walking?

None of the work I have sent home will have required more parental input than that. Other than providing resources (and I even sent out exercise books and pencils) and possibly reading out the task they would have had to do no more than supervise.

A TA, as others have explained, does so much more than that!

TA job description: www.prospects.ac.uk/job-profiles/teaching-assistant

Unfortunately, untrained volunteers (in many settings, not just schools) often create more work that they help relieve.
Yes this. Why departments aren't keen on taking on trainees. Massively time-consuming.

If you had a longer school day, the school would need more staff. More lessons means more teachers. And no you couldn't have everyone following the same time table, thats Ridiculous. How could a school possibly timetable all of maths and english in the morning? Teach over 1000 students the same subject at the same time?! How?! How could that be staffed? And suggesting all non-academic in the afternoon?! How many pe, music, drama, art teachers do you think there are that they can teach over 1000 students at the same time?

The bus company contract would need changing. This wouldnt always be possibly due to other contracts the bus companies have. Getting over 1000 students home from one school requires a lot of buses. Some schools share buses. If all schools finished at the same time, this wouldnt be possible. Some high school students collect their younger siblings from school. If they finished at the same time, this wouldnt be possible. Who gets the primary child home then?

The cleaning staff. They arrive at the end of the school day and finish at 6pm. What time do you want these low paid staff to work until without notice? Who has their children if theyre at their work cleaning until 7pm?

Honestly, every time i see someone write a solution that they think makes them so very clever, yet actually is clear they have no idea how schools run and what other services are actually involved, makes my eyes roll so hard it makes my head hurt. What they actually mean is for their particular child, at their child’s school, with their families circumstances, xyz would work, so therefore it will work for everyone. And if not, everyone else should change to match them. The arrogance.

For some people nothing will ever be enough will it. It’s taken me a long time to realise that, but this feels very much like one of those conversations where people are happier complaining or finding fault and problems than working positively towards practical solutions where we can. I’m out.

We have suggested practical solutions and you are being disingenuous.

I agree. It’s unbelievable how no suggestions are made by some teachers that can even be conceived as constructive. It’s just “ Nah’s” and “ not happening “

I don’t think the OPs suggestion is crazy - for those of you saying the day would be too long and the kids would be too tired, I don’t think that’s necessarily the case for secondary school pupils, it’s the standard time to finish for independent schools. Primary schools I can see it might not work, I really think little ones would struggle with a longer day.

Logistically it would be quite challenging - would it be compulsory? Schools that use school buses rather than public transport (predominantly rural/semi-rural areas I think) would need to arrange this with the bus company, and it might cost more as that would probably mean going into rush hour and therefore being a longer shift for the driver. That’s a relatively minor cost though.

Many teachers chose the profession in part because of the “family friendly” hours. Yes, we work more than just the school hours, but we usually have flexibility about when we do the extra e.g. evenings, weekends, holidays. I have longer hours because I work at an independent school, but we rely on the fact that my DH’s state school has short enough hours that he can get to pick our DD up before wrap-around finishes at her primary school. An extra half hour would mean incurring quite a bit of extra cost (staying later can be arranged, but it is charged at a higher rate because there are fewer pupils).

If something like this is proposed, I sincerely hope it is raised with plenty of notice. The main thing my school has been struggling with has been the changing expectations without adequate time to put a plan in place. Of course we want to do what’s best for our pupils, and we will all be working hard next year to help pupils get caught up.

I was in school till 1600 every day in the 89s, the school days have got so short now

Think my own dc also stayed till 1545 at secondary

Goodness me, no I don’t think schools should stay open until 4 routinely. I teach EYFS-we have children falling asleep in the afternoon as it is.

My own DC get a bus home from school and don’t get home through the door until 4.30-there is no way I’d want them coming home any later.

I would become a very loud active voice at their school in preventing this happening.

It’s unbelievable how no suggestions are made by some teachers that can even be conceived as constructive. It’s just “ Nah’s” and “ not happening

Why should they? It wasn't their idea.

Why aren't you getting on to the OP who has proposed no action....oh...hang on. They've never been back.

Save your ire for them, why don't you?

When I was at school we finished at 4pm it was no real issue.

However It is the knock on effect for staff. work in a school and have contracted hours which are 8-4. That would mean with they would have to pay me extra or that last lesson wouldn't be getting my services and that would have a knock on effect for those students in that class.

@tiptoestar indeed. And there have been many solutions put forward. Unfortunately, the government doesn't seem to want to pay for any of them.

The OPs idea, for example. This would mean changing teachers' contracts to work more directed hours, and would cost a substantial amount of money to pay for those extra hours across the country. Even if this were an amazing idea, the government won't pay for that. The only reason schools remained open during Easter, half term and bank holidays was because, through sheer good will, school staff just decided to work for free.

The idea of summer catch-up was great, until the government realised how much it would actually cost to pay school staff for the extra 6 weeks. Far more than the £350m they had earmarked for summer school catch-ups. A rough calculation of the cost of paying half a million UK teachers to work an extra 6 weeks would be about £2.2bn, and that's not including the other costs like support staff, site staff, resources, insurance, building costs.

My child's school is doing shorter days when they go back, not longer.

School used to finish later because they had proper lunch hours. Those went so that schools didn’t have to pay lunchtime supervisors (or deal with poor behaviour caused by lack of lunchtime supervisors).

@Spacemonkey2016

I don't think you can just it like that. My mum for example, is a TA. Has worked notnal hours throughout for keyworker children, including easter hols. So she's earnt her wages, certainly. She finishes school at 3.30 and starts her evening cleaning job at 5. It's tight enough as it is. Or the teacher who has their own children to pick up from nursery? (I'm all for kids being back normally full time btw, just pointing out if your boss asked you to stay an extra hour at the end of the day for the forseeable, would you?)

Technically, the teschers have to be available to be deployed for 1265 hours a year over 190 days with students. So whether or not the teachers have children to collect is irrelevant.

However a timing change requires either consultation or a rush through governmental change. So it's a moot point currently.

Year 9 and 10s who have to catch up on coursework and content perhaps.

No need for the others to stay later, however if parents could stop their darlings participating in low level disruption that would be lovely so we can get on with actually teaching when they are supposed to be learning, this include the time lost when they start emptying out and playing with their considerable smiggle stationery collection in September.

@TiptoeStar

For some people nothing will ever be enough will it. It’s taken me a long time to realise that, but this feels very much like one of those conversations where people are happier complaining or finding fault and problems than working positively towards practical solutions where we can. I’m out.

You're out because you can't admit your lack of knowledge about the inner workings of a school. You haven't responded to the points put across in many posts asking what support you think untrained people could offer in a school. Continually writing 'PROVIDING ASSISTANCE' in capital letters doesn't answer any questions being put to you.

Why can you not admit that longer term financial investment in schools is how to get out of this mess NOT throwing untrained individuals into school thus creating more work for teachers.