When kids go back in September, should schools stay open till 4pm

[Lardlizard]

To allow kids to catch up and allow workers to catch up on work

Do people think helping your own child with their work is the same as teaching a class of children with any number of different educational needs and social problems?

So the worksheets copied from an online site in five mins sent home by teachers magically inferred my child with the ability to read, write and count? You mean I didn’t just spend several hours a day teaching them, I just made sandwiches and brushed their teeth? Wow. Do explain again how this is different to having another ASSISTANT? Not teacher, ASSISTANT

I have no idea what you're on about, though you're clearly pretty exercised about it. I was making a general point about parents not being teachers. Which they aren't.

@Sirzy I taught for nearly ten years. Seems pretty obvious to me that there are too many people who can’t think outside the box and prefer just to have a moan instead. Call it what you want, classroom support, TA assistant, breakout tutor ... whatever, just PLEASE remember that innovation and problem solving are probably a greater life skills that our kids will need than algebra. I personally would love to see a bit more of it.

No way...I'm in Ireland and my Dds school finishes at 2.20 and that's long enough!!i don't want a constantly cranky and tired child...that would be counter productive

Knackered children don’t learn well.
We teach until 3:45 and they don’t take a whole lot in during that last lesson.

Children in years 10 and 12 might need a bit of catch up. Other kids really, really don’t- we repeat stuff in other years as it is. Learning isn’t just about squishing in lots of work!!

@twinkletoesimnot please genuinely explain the difference? The argument was that untrained adults couldn’t possibly teach anything and that asking them to do so undervalues education. True for some maybe, but there are a shitload who’ve just spent the last three months doing a brilliant job of exactly that, most of whom also have work commitments.

Then we don't have a problem of children falling behind?

@Sleepyblueocean no - rtft. The suggestion was getting more assistants into the classroom to support kids who need to catch up on work, not teach! Except apparently it’s a crap idea as fully functioning intelligent adults who care about kids and have spent the last three months home schooling would be an irritant as they wouldn’t know how to use the photo copier. Despite the fact that our school has parent helpers in all the time for this very purpose.

DBS checks take a couple of days and are quite standard. Safeguarding training is something that can be easily provided, how long do new TAs get at the moment? It doesn’t require any knowledge of curricula or pedagogy

What?? .. to all of this! I was employed as a TA at the end of October last year. DBS didn't come through til a few days before the Christmas break so I wasn't able to start until January so from when the advert went out it was several months between first advert and employee start. The person interviewed a week after I started never got to start her role due to lockdown. My safeguarding and child protection training was also cancelled as it was due the same day the schools closed. I absolutely have knowledge of child development as curriculum. Even if it's not in the essentials of the job role (gives an excuse to keep pay so low) you'd be hard pressed to find a TA that doesn't have it. Your post shows a real lack of understanding of both the recruitment process and the challenges of the job!

@kolo what do you mean, it’s exactly my point that we do

Yes an extra lesson is a good idea

I dont get why you dont want to fund schools properly so each class can have a trained TA rather than a years worth of untrauned support though?

No

The school day is long enough. Children will still have homework (and hopefully extra curriculars) and teachers will still have planning and marking.

Also I was a parent helper for 6 years before I got this current job. There are zero similarities between to 2 roles!

@TiptoeStar I disagree that older age groups (in primary certainly) are more complex to teach. It’s far harder to get those early reading, writing, phonics skills established effectively than to teach children, who already have basic skills secured, subject specific content.

The children who most need to catch up on work will most probably be the children with sen or social problems. It is doing them a disservice to think a random untrained adult is the right person to support them.

I can see that employing specialist experienced tutors to support those in exam years would be useful but not putting untrained TAs in. That would a hindrance in the classrooms I taught in.

FFS people, call if what you want if it makes your egos happier. CLASSROOM SUPPORT, LEARNING SUPPORT ... just try thinking outside the box for a change

The suggestion was getting more assistants into the classroom to support kids who need to catch up on work, not teach!
And it was explained to you, quite clearly, by people currently in the job, that it's not as simple as that, as it can often lead to even more work for the teacher, in addition to running an effective classroom, to have to manage people who may or may not be useful.

And you're being frankly insulting to suggest that a modern-day teacher, who juggles hundreds of spinning plates and challenges every hour of every day, doesn't know how to "think outside the box."

And the average teacher here in Ireland is paid over €30/€35 per hour (mine is over €40) so and extra 2 hours per day for every teacher in Ireland is going to cost a hell of a lot!!

@Hibbetyhob fair and constructive point, thanks. I was more trying to preempt the army of people who would go “but pedagogy, but algebra, but trigonometry, but Shakespeare” etc

TiptoeStar
Well since you asked:

-I want schools to go back to normal
-I want to see proper long term investment in education
-I want class sizes reduced to a number that is manageable for teachers and more beneficial for kids so that they can receive more 1:1 support. 24 for me would be the magic number. It has been years since I have taught less than 32
-Reduction of teacher's workload by eliminating ridiculous time consuming tasks that have no bearing on learning
-More trained support within schools so children can be assisted in class or withdrawn for small group learning
-Formal exams such as SATs to be done away with
-More emphasis and support for Mental Health for kids and staff. Not campaigns from the government telling us how important is it and then putting so much pressure on children and teachers that they are the ones who are forcing people to the point of breakdown.
-A properly funded system so I don't have to spend £4-500 per year on resources for my class so I am able to do my job.
-An end to digital poverty so all pupils can access the curriculum fairly.

As you can see, problems in education haven't come about overnight. Covid has merely highlighted them. Rather than continuing with stopgaps FUND it properly and we would not be in the current situation.
The last ten years, particularly since Michael Gove was Education Minister has saw the decimation of the standard education in this country. It needs addressed quickly before it is at the stage it is past the point of resurrection.

@kolo what do you mean, it’s exactly my point that we do

On the one hand, you're accepting the point that children as a whole will have fallen behind because they haven't been in school.

On the other, you're using the success of parents stepping into the role of TA to demonstrate how any random unemployed person could be hired as TAs to help solve the problem of children falling behind.

Either using unqualified, inexperienced and untrained TAs/parents has led to lack of progress or it will help solve the problem. One or the other.

Given that parents actually KNOW their children better than a random person off the street, I'd have thought they'd have had a better chance of supporting their child to learn than an untrained and unqualified stranger.

@CallmeAngelina are you a teacher?

So what exactly would "classroom support" or "learning support" look like if done by an untrained volunteer who couldn't be expected to teach small groups, wouldn't be left alone with children due to no safeguarding training or DBS (those take TIME and MONEY), wouldn't have knowledge of what children are expected to be learning or how children learn and develop, wouldn't have behaviour management training (both general and in line with the school's discipline policy), wouldn't have SEN training or experience... what would they actually do to help children "catch up"?

We do have offered a solution, despite you claiming we haven't - FUND schools so they can afford trained TAs!

Thats a great list @Saoirse7

Can i just say in am not a teacher or a TA. I have a child with SEN who was failed by funding cuts in mainstream schools and by poorly trained support. Hence i really want properly funded schools and trained support in schools. Long term.