When kids go back in September, should schools stay open till 4pm

[Lardlizard]

To allow kids to catch up and allow workers to catch up on work

Being a TA isn't something you just pick up one day. It requires knowledge of pedagogy, safeguarding, English and Maths, curricula etc. Is the government really going to pay for all that training, DBS checking etc, let along the cost of employing these people?

Imagine for a second we are not talking about schools and staff working within schools. Imagine we are talking about staff in the NHS like nurses, doctors, dentists etc. Do you want those staff working an extra 2 1/2 hours unpaid as the waiting lists are massive? No of course you don't and neither do I.

You are worried about your children, as I am about mine, you think you know what my job entails but you have no idea like I don't know about yours and wouldn't assume you would like to work extra hours unpaid every day for the greater good.

Teachers did not close schools the government and corona virus did. This agenda to get lazy teachers to work more is going to end up harming your children as more and more leave due to the pressures they are facing.

I'll be honest, it depends on the students to whether it would be useful. Some of my students would flourish, most of them would see it as a punishment becuase they hate learning and only see school as a social event. Out of the Year 9s and 10s that I have not engaging at all with online learning, working for an extra hour at the end of the day will not benefit them in the slightest. They are the types of students that I need to plan for differently if I have them after lunch; they fall asleep on the desk, are argumentative and literally cannot be bothered. They have zero focus and you spend the lesson confiscating phones, re-engage them and to stop them winding each other up. Calling in parents makes little difference (so many have said to me "if you can't get them to work, how do you expect me to" when calling home recently), no form of 'punishment' works and they will only do intervention and revision if you promise to feed them. They will not work for they own benefit as they have zero intrinsic motivation.

These students would benefit from being in small groups and having intervention with experienced teachers, not extended days. They need positive role models and motivation to do something with their lives rather than just work part time, get drunk (yes these are only 14 and 15 but that is what they do) and live at home forever.

More teaching isn't what they need, it is more focussed interventions, but we don't have the staff. The class I am thinking about right now is Year 10, there are 33 of them and they are effectively set 8 out of 14 sets. They need our attention, but cannot get it in the current system. We need to change the system, not just throw 'teaching' at them.

It would need some real thinking about. Secondary teachers DO NOT want anything else to plan and mark! However the govt talked about hiring catch up tutors. Maybe the last hour could be used for this. Teachers can get on with their marking and prep and the tutors can step in to give targeted help and support.

@Drivingdownthe101

She only posted an hour and 15 mins ago! Maybe she’s getting ready for work, or travelling to work, or preparing her materials to homeschool her children for the day...

Yeah.

Or maybe she's a goady fucker who's chosen to drop a bomb and then stand back to see it kick off.

Children barely have the attention span to concentrate beyond lunchtime, hence why literacy & numeracy are completed in the morning. Adding an hour on to the end of the day would be madness and completely unproductive.

Honestly speaking as a teacher, if it became the norm I'd leave teaching. Between meetings, marking and planning/prep I usually work to 5.30 in school (kicked out by caretaker who has to lock up) and then around 1-2 hours in the evening at hone as well as around 1/2 a day at the weekend. Then you have the inevitably late parents turning up 20 mins late and the teachers who have to wait with these kids will have less time to prepare each evening.

As always, it is evident to see those who wish for policies like this introduced have never set foot in a classroom.

@CayrolBaaaskin

Yes. And primary teachers are not working 60 hours a week, don’t be ridiculous

And you know this, how? Some do, certainly. I don't, as I'm older and wiser now (and part-time). But there are many, many dedicated and keen primary teachers who will quite likely clock up those sorts of hours.

No.

MaryBerrys is 100% correct though.
Many kids will see this as a detention. A lot of time is wasted on low level disruption at the best of times. I do worry that disaffected students are going to be in such bad habits

Also, will the following be open extra hours to catch up on everything that has been reduced or closed over the last three months:

-GP surgeries for physical appointments - telephone appointments can't take blood results or do physical examinations...

-Registry offices
-Planning Departments

That's just off the top of my head.

No.

That being said my 5yo is back in school & we have the earliest time slot, 8:40-3pm (usually in at 8:50 for a 9am start finish at 3:20). I love it, we seem to have much more time when we get home from school. It would be even better if it were winter, we'd see some daylight. I'd be completely onboard if our school changed to these hours permanently. (I'm aware it would cause headaches for lots of people it's just an 'ideal world' in my head idea).

No. More hours studying doesn't necessarily equal more or better learning.

I don't know when it became acceptable for completely untrained people to decide what is pedagogically the right approach. There is no 'catching up' if everybody's in the same boat. The national curriculum is made up not a thing that exists independently of us.

In case anyone didn’t see, I suggested on the last page creating temporary TA posts for the year which would both help to bridge unemployment for those losing their jobs and provide more resources in schools which is what everyone seems to be asking for, some people of which might even stay in teaching in the longer term.

Being a TA isn't something you just pick up one day. It requires knowledge of pedagogy, safeguarding, English and Maths, curricula etc. Is the government really going to pay for all that training, DBS checking etc, let along the cost of employing these people?

@TeaStory we need less people who focus on finding problems and more people who focus on finding solutions. Not all of this is true. DBS checks take a couple of days and are quite standard. Safeguarding training is something that can be easily provided, how long do new TAs get at the moment? It doesn’t require any knowledge of curricula or pedagogy, that’s not in any TA job spec I’ve ever seen. With a good teacher leading the class it’s about supporting children with learning, not being a back up teacher. Also, our local primary has armies of parents in to help with things like reading, Sats preparation, swimming lessons, lunchtime playground duty, all jobs that mean teachers can spend more time teaching. None of them have any of the requirements (problems) you’re listing. Innovative people can always find a way to make things work.

When I was teaching, I ran afterschool catchup sessions for BTEC students to get their coursework finished. I very often ended up sitting there alone, and the students who did come were those that were already doing well but aiming higher. It's the students who most need the extra help who will resist this. I think there are far bigger problems to tackle in terms of disaffected students, poorly-resourced schools and general attitudes towards education, exams etc.

The latest stats from the DfE workload survey had average primary teacher working hours at 50 hours a week.

I'm not sure how you think we can find solutions until we first identify problems, @TiptoeStar !

Of course TAs need to know how children learn and what they are learning!

TAs are usually expected to have qualifications these days, usually Level 2 or Level 3.

A TA is an awful lot more than just another adult in the classroom!

It takes quite a while for TAs to be able to deliever learning prepared by teachers to small groups. They tend to have done a bit of additional training. The level 2 is 180 hours and level 3 another 180 hours They dont all do that training - many build up with experience but those that are building up experience initially need a lot of support. You cant just throw any old person and say 'teach this sound' 'teach the concept of 1 more'

Nah. Never happen.

Schools are not childcare.

TiptoeStar

I understand where you are coming from but it is this sort of thinking that completely undervalues education. I have seen many suggestions like this over the last few months stating that the unemployed can pick up the slack. How must that feel for TAs to have their job so readily disregarded that anyone can do it without any training?

Imagine the same suggestion being put forward for working in hospitals as auxiliaries.

No because teachers already do revision sessions for year 11 during that time which should carry on. Plus clubs, detentions etc

So far this thread like every other on MN is about two problems (1) children falling behind and (2) teaching resources. What more clarity do you need on what the problems are? Do we really have time to waste, when the whole summer is available to try to set something up for September?? As for paying it, I’d like to think that a lot of it would offset income that would otherwise be from UC payments.

I can’t believe you’re suggesting that temporary ASSISTANCE for teachers is anything but a good thing FFS.

No. I'd be stuffed for work for one thing.

@echt

Nah. Never happen.

Schools are not childcare.

Thankfully in real life I’ve never come accords such wilful obstructive and negative behaviour from teachers than you and a few other usual suspects display on here. I suspect you are a minority. Do you not believe that whilst children are in your care that you are in loco parentis? Because you really are.

@Saoirse7 Again, life doesn’t fit into boxes. Create a new role, a new job spec, a new training programme. Either that or don’t complain about not having enough resources if you’re not open to new ideas! It’s not undervaluing education in the slightest, it’s supporting the children. If we spent less time protecting fragile egos and more on making things work we would get much further in the education debate. This is a generalised point and not a personal one.