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World beating Track and Trace

126 replies

longwayoff · 16/06/2020 08:50

What's happened to this? I've lost track of days, weeks, months and now this. Boris was proclaiming it's worth last time I saw him on TV. Is it working? Has it gone countrywide? What's going on?

OP posts:
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5
ThousandsAreSailing · 20/06/2020 08:06

The government stick the NHS logo on to blur the divide between public and private and people don't bother to read beyond 3 word slogans

DGRossetti · 20/06/2020 08:08

.

World beating Track and Trace
sashagabadon · 20/06/2020 09:36

@DGRossetti

With so many concerns about the app

It's not just the "app" - it's the whole damn shooting match.

To be honest, given how piss poor the UK has done up till now, there's a very good case to be made for simply jacking it all in and giving up.

what a silly attitude to take.
sashagabadon · 20/06/2020 09:41

@Baaaahhhhh

bung as much money as you can to my chums before anyone notices

I wish everyone would stop spouting this line. It is fake fgs. DH works in health IT and knows pretty much everyone who worked on teh NSHX app, both internally, and externally. NONE of them are connected to Cummings. NONE.

agree - there are so many Brits determined everything should fail and spread absolute nonsense and disinformation. Question is why? Do they want a second wave? Do they just enjoy the drama? Have they got nothing else to do? It makes zero sense to me These things are hard - nothing in life is perfect and people/ GOV are doing their best to get us out of this situation in multiple ways of which the app is just one. There are loads of hard working people working on this (and other things) and pass my thanks to your DH. I hope he doesn't read all this negative stuff from the mumsnet debbie downers .
Clavinova · 20/06/2020 09:44

They managed an app in many other European countries too.
Italy launched theirs last week, called Immuni.
I think it's pretty shocking given the number of other neighbouring countries who made it work.Why not learn from them?

How many European countries have successful, working apps? Still seems quite confused to me.This article was published only a few days ago in the New York Times;

"Initially, Italy had envisioned a centralised system that would send data about potentially contagious interactions to the government. But European sensibilities about privacy, and the meteoric arrival of Apple and Google into the debate, led to a reverse course."

"Some public health officials said that Apple and Google's design prioritizes privacy at the expense of learning about the disease"...

"This is a health care strategy in a global pandemic with thousands of deaths," said Cedric O, the junior minister for digital affairs in France, who is leading the development of the country's tracing app, called StopCovid. It does not use Apple and Google's standards."It is highly abnormal that you are contrained as a democratic state in your technical choice because of the internal policies of two private companies."

"The apps built with Apple and Google limit what data can be collected about each reported infection, such as how long or how closely an infected person was in proximity to someone else" ...

"Other governments have determined the privacy intrusion is not worth the potential benefits. In Norway, officials this week halted the use of its app after the country's data-protection authority raised alarms" ...

"Negotiating all these concerns has delayed the release of tracing applications across Europe...as of this week, 2.7 million Italians - in a country with a population of 60 million - had downloaded Immuni."

www.nytimes.com/2020/06/16/world/europe/contact-tracing-apps-europe-coronavirus.html

15 June -
"Norway suspends virus-tracing app due to privacy concerns."^

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/15/norway-suspends-virus-tracing-app-due-to-privacy-concerns

sashagabadon · 20/06/2020 09:44

@cathyandclare

I'd rather they did a trial, found it didn't work and so changed direction rather than ploughing on regardless.
exactly
Baaaahhhhh · 20/06/2020 11:30

Good BBC article this morning. Actually no-ones APP is working as expected. I suspect they may all be abandoned. It is one of those cases of being a great idea in principle, but in practice it actually doesn't replace good old fashioned person to person contract tracing.

LangClegsInSpace · 20/06/2020 11:40

Even countries with great apps have used human beings to do most of their contact tracing. Not everybody has a smartphone, not everybody will download the app, not everyone will switch it on, and switch bluetooth on, and take their phone with them, whenever they leave the house.

Just as importantly, you need human beings because contact tracing can be a distressingly intrusive process and it needs a human face / voice. Of course some will be happier just communicating with an app and/or typing their contacts into a website without having to talk to anyone. Many others will need the reassurance of a human voice to guide them through and address any concerns. It's not app or humans, we need both.

And it's not just about contact tracing. The whole system of test / isolate / contact trace / quarantine needs to work properly in a joined up fashion and there are still a lot of things to fix before it's 'world-beating', or even just reasonably effective.

sashagabadon · 20/06/2020 11:47

@LangClegsInSpace

Even countries with great apps have used human beings to do most of their contact tracing. Not everybody has a smartphone, not everybody will download the app, not everyone will switch it on, and switch bluetooth on, and take their phone with them, whenever they leave the house.

Just as importantly, you need human beings because contact tracing can be a distressingly intrusive process and it needs a human face / voice. Of course some will be happier just communicating with an app and/or typing their contacts into a website without having to talk to anyone. Many others will need the reassurance of a human voice to guide them through and address any concerns. It's not app or humans, we need both.

And it's not just about contact tracing. The whole system of test / isolate / contact trace / quarantine needs to work properly in a joined up fashion and there are still a lot of things to fix before it's 'world-beating', or even just reasonably effective.

agreed. The app will not be the game changer here - and may well be abandoned It is the human contact that will work and moving quickly into areas with local outbreak with testing teams and that is getting better and better over time

as citizens we must also support this and isolate / get tested etc if told to do so. There will never be 100% compliance but hopefully the majority will comply

and for people to stop the conspiracy nonsense and negative attitude , criticising everything all the time when people are doing their utmost to get this to work.
That will help tremendously.

LangClegsInSpace · 20/06/2020 12:22

Testing
We are at last at the stage where anyone with symptoms can get a test.

Turnaround times for drive-in tests seem good from what I am reading, but not so much for the home tests. DD recently requested a test on a Saturday. It arrived on the Tuesday, was picked up by courier on Wednesday and her results came late Friday evening. Thankfully it was negative because otherwise any contacts she had infected would already have been wandering around for a week, even before however long it takes for contact tracing to alert them. She alerted those she knew of straight away but none of them could stay off work and quarantine until officially identified as a contact of a confirmed case. She works in a busy pharmacy and relies on public transport to get there.

This system won't work if it takes a week to get test results.

I also question how effective home testing kits are because it's not easy swabbing your own throat and nostrils. DD's test came with a big multi-page booklet of really quite complex instructions which would be difficult for a lot of people to follow correctly.

We know this virus spreads rapidly in poorer communities and urban communities - exactly the people least likely to have a car and so be able to use a drive-in centre.

We need to rethink home testing. It would be much better, simpler and quicker if someone came to your home and just swabbed you on the doorstep.

Isolation
Seven days isolation for people with symptoms is inadequate. Mild cases can remain infectious for 8-9 days and moderate and severe cases for much longer. They haven't found the upper limit yet for severe cases. WHO recommend 14 days isolation or 3 days after symptoms end, whichever is the longest. CDC have revised their isolation period from 7 days to 10 days.

Isolating at home with the rest of your household should be a last resort. We need to break the chains of transmission within households as well as outside. Not everyone would be able to isolate away from their family or housemates but it should be an option for everyone and it should be encouraged wherever possible.
We could use some of the empty hotels for this, which could save them from bankruptcy, and we could also refit the nightingales to be comfortable places for people to isolate, especially for those on the most unwell end of 'mild'.

The added advantage of having people isolate in community settings is that it's easier to monitor their health and catch them if they start deteriorating. This might help make our death rate less shit.

We also need to make sure that everyone can afford to isolate and for many, SSP is not sufficient. Nobody should end up with rent arrears or be unable to afford food or power because they have to isolate. As we wind down furlough we should be spending just a little bit more in a much more targeted way to make this system work. Nobody should be left behind, including those who have no recourse to public funds, those who fail the habitual residence test and those with irregular immigration status.

Contact tracing
Honestly, I don't believe our system will ever be 'world beating' because our government has squandered so much public trust and effective contact tracing requires a lot of public trust, whether we have an app or not.

Whether the data is gathered from an app or from humans, people need to know that their data is being properly protected. Otherwise they just won't comply. Now is not the time for the government to be building centralised databases or proposing to hold our data for 20 years on the off chance it might be useful.

Quarantining contacts
We don't seem to be bothering much about this. The contact tracing system is measuring its success by the number of contacts that are contacted and asked to isolate but we don't know how many of them actually do. Probably not many, given the growing pressure on people to get back to work.

Again, people are told to isolate at home with the rest of their household and that batshit diagram is still up, telling people they only need to stay at home for 14 days after the first member of their household becomes ill. If you catch it from your unwell household member you can actually leave quicker because the 14 days isolation is then cut to 7 days. The virus could be raging through your whole household, with the last person except you catching it on day 13, and you are still able to come out of isolation on day 14, go to the shops, get on a tube, go to work.

Again, we should be making it possible for contacts to properly quarantine away from their households, wherever possible. Why aren't we using hotels, holiday parks etc.? Again, we need to make sure everyone can afford to quarantine and SSP is not going to cut it for lots of pople, especially as people might need to quarantine more than once.

Probably we also need employment legislation to protect people from being dismissed if they need to quarantine, from day 1 of employment and not after 2 years when most protections kick in.

I'm not saying all this to have a pop at the government for past mistakes. I'm saying this because we all desperately need lockdown measures to ease and end, and this is what we need to do to prevent a second wave. Our case numbers appear to have been at a plateau for a while. Hospital admissions now also appear to be at a plateau. The sooner we can drive infections right down the sooner we can all get back to normal.

I'm not an expert, I've just been watching the WHO press briefings since the beginning of March and noticing the glaring differences between their advice (and what successful countries have been doing), and what our own government are doing.

World beating Track and Trace
DGRossetti · 20/06/2020 16:02

.

World beating Track and Trace
DGRossetti · 21/06/2020 16:00

www.thisismoney.co.uk/wires/ap/article-8425425/Coronavirus-tracing-app-test-privacy-minded-Germany.html

"Germany launched a coronavirus tracing app Tuesday that officials say is so secure even government ministers can use it, though developers acknowledge it isn't perfect yet.
Smartphone apps have been touted as a high-tech tool in the effort to track down potential COVID-19 infections. Experts say finding new cases quickly is key to clamping down on fresh clusters, especially as countries slowly emerge from lockdowns and try to avoid a second wave of infections and deaths.
But governments in Europe have run into legal and cultural hurdles trying to reconcile the need for effective tracing with the continent´s strict data privacy standards.
Germany, where a person's right to their own data even after death is rooted in the constitution, has proved a particular challenge. Early government suggestions to use cell tower information and GPS coordinates for the app prompted a swift backlash.
"Tracking where a person is in real time, that does remind us of China and its surveillance system," said Frederick Richter, who heads the independent Foundation for Data Protection.[…]
Linus Neuman, a club spokesman, praised the German app developers' transparency for using the coding site Github to let the public look over their shoulder and recommend improvements.
He also suggested that choosing to store data only on people's phones, rather than on centralize servers the way France has done, would help minimize privacy risks.[…]
The German government says its app cost 20 million euros ($22.7 million) to develop and will require 2.5 million to 3.5 million euros per month to operate. It's available in German and English, with Turkish and other languages to follow.
So far, Chancellor Angela Merkel's government has been praised for its handling of the pandemic, which has resulted in a death toll about one-fifth of Britain's and one-fourth of Italy's. Germany has recorded almost 190,000 cases of COVID-19 and just over 8,800 deaths to date, according to a tally by Johns Hopkins University."

Check out the open source code here :
github.com/corona-warn-app

cakeisalwaystheanswer · 21/06/2020 17:47

It's so secure but it isn't perfect yet!

But it has had to be released this week because there was a lot of pressure to come up with something after all this time. I am loving this article. And secure until the google/apple people hack it just because they can. Meanwhile it doesn't speak to the french app so what happens with schengen? there are french people working in Germany, crossing the border everyday and the other way round?

And as for the final everyone loves the german govt. claim, no. Many germans think that the german lockdown was unnecessary and an over reaction and there have been protests and riots. There were huge riots in Stuttgart last night as the police tried to enforce lockdown rules against large groups gathering with many dealing drugs.

The germans don't seem to have the covid fear that has affected so many here, if a vaccine becomes available only half of them are willing to take it. With that in mind it will be interesting to see how many are prepared to download this "not perfect" app.

joan04 · 21/06/2020 20:21

It's classic Tory scum greed using a deadly pandemic as an opportunity to spread a large amount of cash amongst your chums regardless of the implications to people's welfare.

People die because Johnson and Cummings just want to squirrel cash away - yet idiots still defend them, and worse still vote for them (well - Johnson is elected at least, Wormtongue is completely unaccountable as we have seen with the Barnard Caste debacle).

The irony is that the majority of those defending these parasites that I see on social media are actually people at the bottom of the pile themselves. Your classic working-class van driving Tory bigoted idiot, brainwashed and conned by the billionaire owned media into doing the bidding of the very wealthy.
All Tories are *** End of.

Beatrixpotterspencil · 22/06/2020 01:31

Oh do shut up with that ‘Debbie downer’ clap trap.
You sound like a bloody 6 year old.

Baaaahhhhh · 22/06/2020 15:06

joan04 What on earth are you talking about?

I will say it once again...... large amounts of cash HAVE NOT been spread around anyone to do with government. Many small and medium sized IT companies and NHSX have been involved in creating the (now defunct) app. Stop believing fake news.

And with 100bn spent on supporting workers on furlough, plus bns other grants etc to councils and NHS ....... where exactly is the squirreling occuring?

DGRossetti · 22/06/2020 15:55

@ThousandsAreSailing

It isn't 'The NHS' who decided to make their own app. It is a private company with the app just being given the NHS logo. It was a government decision based, like all their decisions, on which donor /cronie can benefit from government contracts
.
World beating Track and Trace
cathyandclare · 22/06/2020 16:55

Did SERCO do the app? I know they handled the test and trace contract, but I thought NHSX www.nhsx.nhs.uk/about-us/who-we-are/ led on the app.

Admittedly I am not an expert, so interested to see any links.

DGRossetti · 24/06/2020 16:51

🇩🇪: The Corona-Warn app was released on 16th June and has been downloaded more than 12million times. Their app uses the Google/Apple technology that the UK has moved towards. German football teams even wore the logo of the app on their kit to encourage downloads.
🇫🇷: Emmanuel Macron was one of the first countries in Europe to launch their app, with the StopCovid France app launching on 2nd June. However, only around 2% of the population has downloaded it.
🇸🇬: Singapore launched their Trace Together app in March. However, only 20% of the population downloaded it and they are now believed to be moving towards a wearable device for tracking that doesn't need a smartphone.
🇰🇷: South Korea are among the countries who have been most successful in beating the virus and they do not have an app for the general population, preferring to use mobile phone data instead. However, people entering the country must download a tracing app.
🇮🇸: 38% of the population have downloaded Iceland's app, which relies on GPS rather than bluetooth.
🇦🇺: 6.1million people have downloaded the Covid-Safe app in Australia, around a quarter of the population. That app uses bluetooth to trace who a person has been in contact with.
🇭🇺: Italy's Immuni app works in a similar way to the majority of app, using bluetooth technology. They have had around 2.2million downloads.
✍️: lbc.co.uk/politics/the-news-explained/countries-functioning-covid-19-tracking-app/

World beating Track and Trace
cakeisalwaystheanswer · 24/06/2020 17:57

An interesting article in the Telegraph on the french system, 1.7m downloaded it originally and 500k have already deleted it. That's barely 2% of the population covered and they need 60%. For those who can't read the article it goes on to mention how phone users happily sign up to the chinese video platform TikTok but are terrified of privacy issues with track and trace.

www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/06/24/nhs-contact-tracing-app-will-late-abject-failure/

DGRossetti · 24/06/2020 17:59

An interesting article in the Telegraph on the french system, 1.7m downloaded it originally and 500k have already deleted it. That's barely 2% of the population covered and they need 60%. For those who can't read the article it goes on to mention how phone users happily sign up to the chinese video platform TikTok but are terrified of privacy issues with track and trace.

Is that the reason given for the low French uptake ?

cakeisalwaystheanswer · 24/06/2020 18:31

Privacy issues, battery drain and apparently in the first three weeks only 68 positive cases were registered on it which generated 14 notifications. So you can probably add apathy to that list.

Clavinova · 24/06/2020 18:32

6.1million people have downloaded the Covid-Safe app in Australia, around a quarter of the population.

June 17
"The federal government’s Covidsafe contact tracing app works as few as one in every four times for some devices, documents tabled in the Senate have revealed."

"Since the launch of the app in late April, developers have highlighted ongoing problems with the contact tracing app being able to exchange Bluetooth handshakes with iPhones if the iPhone screen is locked."

"As of last week state health agencies have only downloaded data from the app around 30 times, and in none of those cases did the app find anyone not already discovered through traditional contact tracing methods."

"There remain several critical issues with the operation of the Covidsafe app beyond the iPhone issue" ...

"The DTA said it was still testing the Apple-Google framework to see if it can be implemented in Covidsafe. Several countries, including Germany, have already moved to implement the framework."

"Singapore, which developed the app Covidsafe is based on, this week decided against using it."

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/17/covid-safe-app-australia-covidsafe-contact-tracing-australian-government-covid19-tracking-problems-working

cakeisalwaystheanswer · 26/06/2020 22:40

An update on the german app. Most of the cases recently identified have been Romanian workers.

What I don't understand (probably because I have no medical knowledge whatsoever) is that according to antibody tests only about one in ten of the german covid cases were picked up despite their extensive testing. If the app is downloaded by 15% of the population it is still likely that because of the huge percentage of asymptomatic cases that only one in ten infections are picked up. So this will mean that only15% of 10% of cases will benefit from tracing. That is only 1.5% of the total cases.

www.dw.com/en/loved-or-loathed-how-germanys-coronavirus-tracking-app-is-faring/a-53959165