Was furloughing worth the National debt

[HMSSophie]

Government funding of furloughed employees has resulted in huge national debt. But massive redundancies are pending. Was it worth it? We seem to have arrived at the worst of all worlds: national debt plus massive unemployment.

I know three or four months of additional income will on an individual level would be very meaningful (my DD is furloughed) but job losses are coming none the less (my DD for one, again). Was it the right thing to do or has the Government made a balls up?

@NoHardSell seems to think it's the employees' choice whether they are furloughed or not, and that it was the lowly workers, not the government or the businesses, who are keeping establishments closed and staff off work.

Unless 2m is removed
AND the arts are allowed to re open
lots of the furloughed staff will be getting P45s soon
and they will not be eligible for UC until they have spent all of their savings (including ISAs built up over many years)

Furlough was Important but I think a bigger test will be to come when businesses can open up but might not be profitable. There are some sectors that have been more affected than others and there should be some recognition of that.

@ListeningQuietly

Unless 2m is removed AND the arts are allowed to re open lots of the furloughed staff will be getting P45s soon and they will not be eligible for UC until they have spent all of their savings (including ISAs built up over many years)

Hopefully both of the first things will happen.

The savings thing with UC:

You can claim UC if your savings are below £16,000, but the savings will be taken into account.

No savings below £6000 are taken into account.

You aren't allowed to deprive yourself of assets to hit those thresholds, but you are allowed to use your savings to purchase things you need (worth seeking advice on this). You will need to provide receipts.

Nihil
I know the UC savings rules.
I have been advising Self Employed clients about whether to take SEIS or UC.
Many employees have substantial savings which they will have to burn through before they can get UC.
If they are in a mortgaged house they are saving money for now.
If they are in private rental they will become homeless pretty quick when the furlough money stops
(so again the young are thrown under the bus by the old)

Lots of the furloughed staff will be getting P45s soon and they won't be eligible for UC until they have spent all their savings including ISAs built up over many years

Well played rishi...stitched em up good style

Well if you know the rules, why are you spreading false information about them?

I wasn't clarifying for your benefit, but for anyone who might take what you said at face value.

Employees who lose their jobs will mostly be able to claim JSA for 6 months.

I agree that the current system is unfair, but spreading misinformation about it just as lots of people come to rely on it for the first time is pretty irresponsible.

Following on from discussions about UC, if you have over £16k in savings you can still claim Jobseeker's Allowance for 6 months if you have paid enough national insurance over the past few years. It's not much but something.

@SinisterBumFacedCat

NoHardSell I remember you lecturing from previous threads and you still don’t get it. If I remember correctly you don’t actually work yourself do you

I am currently working twice as many hours, well I exaggerate, but every day anyway, all summer, then I'll probably get made redundant anyway in September. No nice three month furlough for me although it sounds a great new addition to our unemployment safety net. Apparently I don't get my mortgage paid for six months in September but it's fine right now to pay people's mortgages as otherwise they'll lose their houses. Logic? Are all those furloughed pushing for a change to UC now they've seen how vulnerable we are to sudden unemployment? How many of you have written to your MP? (I have, and I did for early lockdown, bet none of you have done fuck all)

If people hadn't been furloughed for so long, they wouldn't have complied with lockdown for so long. Here we probably have a difference of opinion. I think this lockdown is a shit waste of time - in the context of the next two or so years. By early March it was too late in terms of cost/benefit. This one cost too much for too little benefit. We can't keep furloughing every time it comes back, and it's too widespread to go away. That vaccine isn't coming to save you. And the death rate is hardly terrifying, nor is the risk profile. Even if it was, there comes a point where you need to get on with things. Obviously you're not going to push for that whilst sat on your arse on full pay. Who would?

Nihil
Employees can do JSA
The self employed cannot - and there are millions of them.
6 months of JSA with capped HB rents will not prevent an epidemic of evictions.

@NoHardSell you make some valid points, but you seem to be blaming the furloughed rather than those making the decisions. The people furloughed had no choice - their employers put them on furlough because they couldn't afford to pay them and it was that or redundancy. Do you think people put on furlough could have refused? It has saved many jobs but many are still getting made redundant now.

And contrary to what you think, there are many people on furlough who wish things would get back to normal. Many are sitting at home worrying about redundancy or they have already had the call. Many are suffering mentally due to the uncertainty of it all. It is wrong to think everyone is enjoying months off work at 80% pay, and they will all return to their jobs as if they've just had a nice long holiday.

@ListeningQuietly

Nihil Employees can do JSA The self employed cannot - and there are millions of them. 6 months of JSA with capped HB rents will not prevent an epidemic of evictions.

I know.

I'm just correcting this:

"Many employees have substantial savings which they will have to burn through before they can get UC."

That is not accurate.

Most employees will be entitled to 6 months of JSA before they have to touch their "substantial savings" for UC eligibility purposes.

It's important that people know this, because the jobs and benefits office have a poor record of putting people straight onto UC and telling them JSA has been abolished.

[quote orangecats]@NoHardSell you make some valid points, but you seem to be blaming the furloughed rather than those making the decisions. The people furloughed had no choice - their employers put them on furlough because they couldn't afford to pay them and it was that or redundancy. Do you think people put on furlough could have refused? It has saved many jobs but many are still getting made redundant now.

And contrary to what you think, there are many people on furlough who wish things would get back to normal. Many are sitting at home worrying about redundancy or they have already had the call. Many are suffering mentally due to the uncertainty of it all. It is wrong to think everyone is enjoying months off work at 80% pay, and they will all return to their jobs as if they've just had a nice long holiday.[/quote]
As long as they are making their feelings loudly known, I have no issues with that. Advocating for the end to a shit lockdown is great. I just don't hear it all that much but perhaps those email boxes to MPs are full to bursting and I just don't know about it.

I actually would have done a lot of things differently, including paying furlough longer for those in jobs that really can't reopen. But we've spunked all the money now on businesses that didn't need to close so it's too late for that.

I just read this. I thoroughly agree.
www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/14/the-past-three-months-have-proved-it-the-costs-of-lockdown-are-too-high

@B1rdbra1n

Lots of the furloughed staff will be getting P45s soon and they won't be eligible for UC until they have spent all their savings including ISAs built up over many years

Well played rishi...stitched em up good style

No one has stitched any one up, the savings threshold has always been there and has the same implications for people who lost their jobs before the pandemic for reasons they had no control of either, do you think it would be fair for someone who lost their jobs in January to have to use their savings to live on while someone who lost their jobs due to the pandemic were able to keep that money and still claim state benefits

*@NoHardSell

As long as they are making their feelings loudly known, I have no issues with that. Advocating for the end to a shit lockdown is great. I just don't hear it all that much but perhaps those email boxes to MPs are full to bursting and I just don't know about it.

I actually would have done a lot of things differently, including paying furlough longer for those in jobs that really can't reopen. But we've spunked all the money now on businesses that didn't need to close so it's too late for that.*
What are you talking about how do you know what businesses could've opened? , if a business main customer was the hospitality trade that can't open and can't pay any money owed a supplier can't open and can't trade and it's a knock on effect . why can't you get your head around that ?.
So a stationary company for example main customer could owe thousands but can't pay because they've not been paid . It's silly to say oh o can't see how a stationary company shouldn't furloughed their staff they are not affected . EVERYONE will be effected if not yet but soon because industry that were thriving before are no longer trading and they don't know when they can trade yet .
You can argue that it's costing the country a lot yes no one disagrees with that but there was no alternative because believe me the government would of done it .
Oh and email mps why what will that achieve , businesses can't just magic up work and sales so without that it's furloughed then possibly redundancy.

Also @NoHardSell Reading your other posts it sounds to me your annoyed because your not furloughed you have to work . Is that the issue then ? So if you were furloughed tomorrow you'd say no and resign from your job would you .

God it's my dream to be furloughed. Sit on my arse all day long, picnics with the kids, walks in the park (as per another thread I literally just read) homeschooling them instead of ignoring them, saving £££££ due to not having to invest huge amounts in laptops etc. Long life the furlough revolution. We can all stay at home forever and mummy and daddy will pick up all the bills and protect us from the big bad virus.

I do see the appeal, believe me

Sadly it will all come crashing down as ... economics ... but this gets filed in the same bin as brexit, free unicorns and sunlit uplands. And if over 50% support it, we all get dragged over that economic cliff.

We can't afford it. It's far far too late to expect all this to go away and one day soon, although fuck knows when as apparently we are now in full blown mass hysteria, we are going to learn to live with it. Ideally not before we bankrupt the country.

I take it you haven't emailed your MP then?

the clawback....
inews.co.uk/news/business/coronavirus-uk-latest-rishi-sunak-hmrc-draconian-powers-covid-19-support-claims-444690/amp
HMRC is expected to focus on a number of high-profile companies that it believes may have asked staff to work despite taking the 80 per cent furlough payments from the Treasury’s Job Retention Scheme (JRS).
100% tax on misused Covid-19 scheme payments
If HMRC suspects a company has broken the rules of the JRS scheme, which do not allow furloughed staff to work while receiving up to £2,500 a month to stay at home, it will impose a 100 per cent tax rate on the payments.

The Treasury’s decision to take the unusual step of effectively introducing a new tax band has been made to ensure HMRC can use existing powers to prosecute businesses that fail to pay tax demands from Covid-19 payments that it believes were misused, obtained incorrectly or not necessary.
HMRC will also be handed powers to target beneficiaries of the Self-Employment Income Support Scheme (SEISS) and small companies that received grants of up to £25,000 to help them through the crisis. If HMRC suspects a business did not actually require a loan, or that a sole trader ceased trading soon after receiving money from the SEISS scheme, it will be able to put the burden on those investigated to prove otherwise.
Powers will become law next month
The draft legislation to hand HMRC the tough powers will be added to the Finance Bill, which is currently making its way through Parliament and is expected to receive Royal Assent from the Queen by the middle of next month.
Once passed any business or individual that has received cash from the JRS or SEISS schemes, which are due to come to an end on 31 October, will have 30 days to self-declare a mistaken application and pay the furlough cash or loan back without penalty.
If, however, HMRC decides an undeclared mistake has been made after considering filed accounts for the last financial year and the current one, it will launch an investigation and force those accused to show they did not break any Covid-19 support payment rules.
Ultimately, a failure to pay 100 per cent to cash back to HMRC could result in criminal prosecution.

HMRC are going to be busy.

Meanwhile Jeff bezos sits back laughing as he sucks up all the money 💰

NoHardSell sounds like you need to look for a new job as you clearly hate yours. Your personal circumstances aren't the fault of the furloughed.

B1rdbrain
I am pleased that HMRC are doing a clawback.
It makes sense and will all be based on whistleblowing and simple inspections.

Re Bezos
yup he's raking it in BUT
the tide against offshore tax is turning v v v fast
and in the EU without the UK kicking back
I think he'll find life tougher than he expects
tee hee

@NoHardSell why don't you go out and enjoy the sunshine? Sit on your arse and have a picnic with the kids, or have a walk in the park? These things are not exclusively available for the furloughed.

I for one have enjoyed a lovely BBQ lunch with some social distancing friends. We will take the DC for a bike ride when it's a bit cooler... and yes, tomorrow I will be back at work. Very, very happy after 8 weeks on furlough

I was furloughed...and made redundant. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, it has been horrendous. The 3 weeks I spent working from home the beginning of this are like a dream in comparison. We won't get benefits as we will have to live off our savings. Which is right, but it's hard to see everything you've worked for dwindle away. Anyone could have ended upin this situation and I can't see the mentality of resenting us. My 3 months furlough will hopefully be the only "benefits" I get in my life. I'm just praying we dont lose our house over this and manage to find a job soon.