Was furloughing worth the National debt

[HMSSophie]

Government funding of furloughed employees has resulted in huge national debt. But massive redundancies are pending. Was it worth it? We seem to have arrived at the worst of all worlds: national debt plus massive unemployment.

I know three or four months of additional income will on an individual level would be very meaningful (my DD is furloughed) but job losses are coming none the less (my DD for one, again). Was it the right thing to do or has the Government made a balls up?

Out of interest what do you think would have happened to those who didn’t agree to being furloughed? Because to be honest, for most people it wasn’t a choice.

"Well at least you know that employees have to agree to be furloughed"

If your employer tells you that you are being furloughed, you can't exactly refuse. If you worked in the hospitality sector such as restaurants, inessential shops, or tourism, there was no work to do anyway and no way you could refuse to be furloughed.

Even if you don't work in those sectors directly, the closures created a domino effect and affected income for businesses across many sectors.

"A lot of businesses didn't have to close, or at least, they chose to close even though they were allowed to stay open. Why should everyone else pay for that?"

Some businesses were not specifically told to close, but the closure of those businesses meant other businesses were not making money, so it was not economically viable for them to remain open and paying staff.

"Never mind all the ones making them work regardless of furlough"

This is obviously wrong and against furlough rules, but difficult for the employee as they may bee compelled to do so to keep their job. It is not the employees fault.

"it was fine as a short term measure. Absolute piss take beyond 3 weeks"

The government hasn't allowed restaurants to open yet, and shops can't open until next week. It would have been immoral and resulted in millions of redundancies if they had stopped furlough after 3 weeks. If this had happened, the unemployed would have ended up on benefits so the government would have been paying them anyway, and probably for longer.

Will it ever end, or is it just some kind of free permanent holiday scheme?

@toebeans2

"Well at least you know that employees have to agree to be furloughed"

If your employer tells you that you are being furloughed, you can't exactly refuse. If you worked in the hospitality sector such as restaurants, inessential shops, or tourism, there was no work to do anyway and no way you could refuse to be furloughed.

Even if you don't work in those sectors directly, the closures created a domino effect and affected income for businesses across many sectors.

"A lot of businesses didn't have to close, or at least, they chose to close even though they were allowed to stay open. Why should everyone else pay for that?"

Some businesses were not specifically told to close, but the closure of those businesses meant other businesses were not making money, so it was not economically viable for them to remain open and paying staff.

"Never mind all the ones making them work regardless of furlough"

This is obviously wrong and against furlough rules, but difficult for the employee as they may bee compelled to do so to keep their job. It is not the employees fault.

"it was fine as a short term measure. Absolute piss take beyond 3 weeks"

The government hasn't allowed restaurants to open yet, and shops can't open until next week. It would have been immoral and resulted in millions of redundancies if they had stopped furlough after 3 weeks. If this had happened, the unemployed would have ended up on benefits so the government would have been paying them anyway, and probably for longer.

By then we had achieved our objective of 'saving the nhs' The rest has been a total waste of time

@Waxonwaxoff0

NoHardSell so what would your alternative be? Seeing people lose their homes? If you have a mortgage you don't get much help from Universal Credit.

So maybe people might start thinking UC could be improved, to the benefit of everyone, instead of sitting happily taking £2.5k to cover their mortgage (holiday)

Right, as if changes to UC could just happen overnight. It's taking years just to set up the current system.

"By then we had achieved our objective of 'saving the nhs'
The rest has been a total waste of time"

The NHS is not the only thing that matters. What do you think pays for the NHS?

Mass unemployment and thousands of businesses going under would have harmed everyone - including the economy, NHS and all our day to day lives eventually.

Yes because it saved many from DYING.

Will it ever end, or is it just some kind of free permanent holiday scheme?

Yes, it's ending in October, and being reduced from August.

@Waxonwaxoff0

Right, as if changes to UC could just happen overnight. It's taking years just to set up the current system.

Changes to UC rates could happen quickly now, and did when the additional "bonus" was added.

The computer system is pretty robust now (if entirely inflexible).

The 5 week wait could be jettisoned immediately and woukd make such a difference.

Restoring mortgage interest payments shouldn't be too tricky, because they were abolished while the New system was being rolled out.

@toebeans2

"By then we had achieved our objective of 'saving the nhs' The rest has been a total waste of time"

The NHS is not the only thing that matters. What do you think pays for the NHS?

Mass unemployment and thousands of businesses going under would have harmed everyone - including the economy, NHS and all our day to day lives eventually.

Lol So funny Yes, what do you think pays for the nhs? Magic money trees? This morphed into a mass hysteria event a few months ago and it's taking people really a long time to get to grips with the new reality and get back to work. Free salaries aren't helping.

@Waxonwaxoff0

Right, as if changes to UC could just happen overnight. It's taking years just to set up the current system.

Oh don't worry about it. Haven't you noticed we can just magic up money left right and centre when we want to?

"Lol
So funny
Yes, what do you think pays for the nhs? Magic money trees? This morphed into a mass hysteria event a few months ago and it's taking people really a long time to get to grips with the new reality and get back to work. Free salaries aren't helping."

Well we both agree then don't we?

People need to work for the NHS to be funded. So people need to have jobs. Without furlough, many people would have lost their jobs and many businesses wouldn't have opened again. Thanks to furlough, many businesses have been able to retain staff and be in a position to reopen as soon as they can. Those staff, who would have been made redundant otherwise, will then be back in work and paying taxes again as soon as possible.

I think you are forgetting many people on furlough work for businesses not currently allowed to open, so they literally CANNOT WORK. Restaurant staff, hotel staff, tourism staff, fashion retail staff etc etc...

Furlough is helping our business to survive. We are suppliers to the theatre and event industries and our very busy order book was completely obliterated on 23 March. We have no idea when we will be able to trade again. We have to hope the furlough scheme will continue past October because until our sector is allowed to re-start we cannot afford to pay our staff to do nothing...

I agree it was the right thing to do but with hindsight, it was too generous. I don’t know what the right answer is.

DH is furloughed on 80% and has saved money whilst off (handy as we are not sure he will return).
I know teenagers living at home getting furlough money from their weekend jobs.
I know people furloughed from their usual companies who are working alternate jobs whilst off.

Yes, and the sooner those businesses open the better. Furlough kept everyone quiet, compliant and happy at home sunbathing while the economy burned over a virus that is essentially a threat to the very elderly. We 'saved the nhs' by spreading out cases. It has been too late since early March to follow any other path but now we are twatting around pretending we have other options. The only realistic option is - get used to it and get back to work - or self fund your isolation.

The furlough scheme is palliative care.

"Yes, and the sooner those businesses open the better. Furlough kept everyone quiet, compliant and happy at home sunbathing while the economy burned over a virus that is essentially a threat to the very elderly. We 'saved the nhs' by spreading out cases. It has been too late since early March to follow any other path but now we are twatting around pretending we have other options. The only realistic option is - get used to it and get back to work - or self fund your isolation."

I agree, it's time to get back to normal. However, the furloughed have no choice over this do they - they didn't ask for lockdown or for their employer to close the business and furlough them. They can't go back to work if the business is closed or their employer is refusing to bring them back from furlough it's up to the employer when or if to bring them back.

NoHardSell I remember you lecturing from previous threads and you still don’t get it. If I remember correctly you don’t actually work yourself do you

There is always 1 or 2 people who come on furlough bashing it's uncalled for .
I've been furloughed since March and now I'm going through the redundancy consultation. If this happened at the beginning I wouldn't of been able to look for another job because it's lockdown and because I've worked for my employer less than 2 years I'd be entitled to nothing.
So that's at least 3 months on no pay , I honestly wouldn't of been able to pay my bills . Most people wouldn't and would of probably carried on working which most probably would of resulted in the death rates increased and not to mention the economy would be a lot worse than it is .
So yes of course it was worth it and it's coming to a end soon anyway hence the redundancy as employers have to contribute from July.

NoHardSell I agree it's time to get back to normal. I want to go back to work and send DS back to school. But that is not up to me. Do you think the people on furlough have the power to make decisions for the country? The government ordered businesses to close, and they are the ones that decide when they open back up, not the furloughed workers.

What would be the alternative to furloughing and increasing National Debt,
letting millions of jobs and companies go to the wall with the accompanying crash in the economy?

@toebeans2

"Lol So funny Yes, what do you think pays for the nhs? Magic money trees? This morphed into a mass hysteria event a few months ago and it's taking people really a long time to get to grips with the new reality and get back to work. Free salaries aren't helping."

Well we both agree then don't we?

People need to work for the NHS to be funded. So people need to have jobs. Without furlough, many people would have lost their jobs and many businesses wouldn't have opened again. Thanks to furlough, many businesses have been able to retain staff and be in a position to reopen as soon as they can. Those staff, who would have been made redundant otherwise, will then be back in work and paying taxes again as soon as possible.

I think you are forgetting many people on furlough work for businesses not currently allowed to open, so they literally CANNOT WORK. Restaurant staff, hotel staff, tourism staff, fashion retail staff etc etc...

People on Furlough pay are still paying taxes, both DH and I are furloughed I am only getting 80% and its capped so I am not paying as much DH is getting 100% of his salary as his employer is paying the extra 20%, we haven't had wage slips but certainly looking at our bank statements my husbands salary is the same amount as before furlough so he is paying the same amount in tax ni and pension contribution. This makes it clearer. www.bdo.co.uk/en-gb/insights/tax/employer-essentials/coronavirus-job-retention-scheme

Otherwise I agree with you

The furloughed are the unemployed in waiting. Don't resent them.

Well at least you know that employees have to agree to be furloughed

I didn't get a choice, but it's ok because my furlough ends on July 31....along with 800 other who were told this week our jobs would be no more. I didn't chose that either