Was furloughing worth the National debt

[HMSSophie]

Government funding of furloughed employees has resulted in huge national debt. But massive redundancies are pending. Was it worth it? We seem to have arrived at the worst of all worlds: national debt plus massive unemployment.

I know three or four months of additional income will on an individual level would be very meaningful (my DD is furloughed) but job losses are coming none the less (my DD for one, again). Was it the right thing to do or has the Government made a balls up?

@ListeningQuietly

Well in fairness - that’s just fraud, you had to declare your business had been affected when you claimed it... But not HOW it had been impacted. If she bought a car for £7500 that is her choice she still has to pay 29% or 49% of that money back in tax next January.

Well it had to be adversely affected and there were suggested criteria... so no, you didn’t have to declare how much, but if it’s not at all then...

tab
I cannot think of a single business that was not affected at all.
Even mine
because the logistics of working with impacted clients changed the way I have worked for the last three months
even though my income has been unaffected.

I think maybe it was too generous, 80% is a lot and when you consider the upper amount was £2500

The £2500 is approx the national average, so is a pretty sensible amount.

@Kazzyhoward

I think maybe it was too generous, 80% is a lot and when you consider the upper amount was £2500

The £2500 is approx the national average, so is a pretty sensible amount.

also 2500 was the gross amount so once tax, NI, pension contributions and potentially student loans are taken out its more like 1600ish.

“I cannot think of a single business that was not affected at all.“

It wasn’t me that said it wasn’t affected, I was just pointing out of it really wasn’t, they can’t have filled in the claim honestly and it’d show up when they submit it anyway.

Submit this year I mean

they can’t have filled in the claim honestly and it’d show up when they submit it anyway.
Unlikely.
As we have no idea what the economy will be doing by the end of the year
so the impact of 11 weeks of lockdown is one thing
the impact of changing work and spending patterns is another
AND
we have the joy of a Hard Brexit on December 31st to throw all the balls up in the air at once.

Everyone's circumstances are different though and with a blanket scheme there'll always be edge cases where people did better or worse than the average but a 'good' scheme positively affects most (not all) and has a low fraud to need ratio and and I believe that's true with this. I am furloughed and getting approx £1550 take home and my mortgage (two bed one bath semi detached house over an hours commute from my work - nothing fancy!) is £1300. I genuinely needed both the job retention scheme and the mortgage holiday to stay solvent. In my opinion this is probably the only thing in this entire pandemic the government did right!

80% isn't a lot when you are on minimum wage which is what I'm getting.

I've now heard a few interesting stories. Two business I know of own property in a city. They were given two lots of £10,000 for each commercial property, plus some other sort of money for being closed. They also furloughed most staff - not all because they are slightly involved with funeral services, so still had some business. Have come out of it all £30,000 better off.

Another one, cousin of mine has been working throughout - massively busy. Got some sort of grant to the tune of £6,000.

I have no idea how that works, but you know... doesn't seem fair really.

It's the only thing they've done right

ohthegoats
Life is not fair and chancers will always game the system.
That does not take away from the fact that the Furlough scheme has stopped millions of people being destitute over the last few months.

Funeral directors have been MASSIVELY hit by Covid
because the add ons (6 cars for the extended family etc) are GONE
and the £10,000 per property is TAXABLE

"got some sort of grant"
that will be the SEIS and its perfectly legal to be working and claim it
I told all of my clients to do so
as NOBODY knows what the autumn will bring

I’ve worked throughout but massively reduced hours and I’ve claimed my SEISS Grant.

I’ve done several furlough claims for clients. Only one has now made staff redundant as they won’t recover. The others are all grateful for it to keep staff paid until they can reopen.

It’s kept thousands out of the benefits system and most with a job to go back to.

Yes it was worth it. My small business clients have all been saved by the grants and furlough.

No, just prolonging the inevitable. The failure to manage this pandemic responsibly has meant a longer period of low economic activity. They would have secured far better outcomes for future growth and recovery by actually dealing with the problem in front of them. As it is they have a test, track and trace system which misses 75% of symptomatic cases. Our European neighbours have a head start and will leave us swiftly and gladly behind with far less risk of a second, catastrophic lockdown. But not us, we're still in this shambolic state. You may as well resign yourselves to the regression of a developing country.

the end of Brexit Transition in December will make it all better

I am no fan of this govt, but Rishi Sunak played a blinder with the furlough scheme and I fully support him and it. It's not just businesses that have been able to take advantage of this scheme - I have a few friends who work for charities and they have fur,jogged people because their big fundraising events that run through the summer can't happen this year.

Some businesses will not make it, but by giving the option to furlough staff, they have been given a chance and, for that, we should be thankful.

Secret
Absolutely
Sunak has been exceptional
and note that there are no 'leaks' from the Treasury at all
he has the whole team on board
he has a plan
he's still a Tory Brexshitter
BUT
his dad was a GP and his mum ran a corner pharmacy shop
it shows

The government forced businesses to shut their doors, so it was only right to introduce the furlough scheme. However there are still many redundancies happening - I know of at least 10 people personally over the last week and my job is on a knife edge.

The government forced businesses to shut their doors, so it was only right to introduce the furlough scheme.

This is basically the heart of it.

Forcing businesses to close is such a massive intervention in the market.

It's why I'm surprised that the extension wasn't limited to businesses forced to close, or to limit trade.

@Nihiloxica

The government forced businesses to shut their doors, so it was only right to introduce the furlough scheme.

This is basically the heart of it.

Forcing businesses to close is such a massive intervention in the market.

It's why I'm surprised that the extension wasn't limited to businesses forced to close, or to limit trade.

Ridiculous that it applied to anyone who fancied months of paid time off rather than just businesses forced to close

I’m not a Sunak fan to be honest.

Yes the furlough scheme was well received but they missed chunks of people (eg self employed) - it would have been more efficient to pay individuals a universal income instead of added paperwork of furlough.

Ridiculous that it applied to anyone who fancied months of paid time off rather than just businesses forced to close

?? Individuals didn’t chose to be furloughed. It was imposed on them in many cases!

It’s funny how people put the economy over health and well-being of people themselves. Without people, we have no economy. The economy is there to serve us not the other way around.

Ridiculous that it applied to anyone who fancied months of paid time off rather than just businesses forced to close

It was not up to the employee whether they are furloughed or not - it has always been up to the employer. And employers wouldn't furlough people just because they wanted 'months of paid time off' unless the business was suffering financially as a result of Covid and they had to furlough staff. Yes some people may have asked their employer to be furloughed, but the employer did not have to grant this and wouldn't have obliged just to give the employee time off work!!! They would only furlough staff if they had no money and/or work coming in for the staff to do.

You sound like one of those people who is irrationally jealous of the furloughed. Most people on furlough were furloughed against their will and would much rather be at work with a stable job. Lots of redundancies are happening across the country right now.

@toebeans2

Ridiculous that it applied to anyone who fancied months of paid time off rather than just businesses forced to close

It was not up to the employee whether they are furloughed or not - it has always been up to the employer. And employers wouldn't furlough people just because they wanted 'months of paid time off' unless the business was suffering financially as a result of Covid and they had to furlough staff. Yes some people may have asked their employer to be furloughed, but the employer did not have to grant this and wouldn't have obliged just to give the employee time off work!!! They would only furlough staff if they had no money and/or work coming in for the staff to do.

You sound like one of those people who is irrationally jealous of the furloughed. Most people on furlough were furloughed against their will and would much rather be at work with a stable job. Lots of redundancies are happening across the country right now.

Well at least you know that employees have to agree to be furloughed

A lot of businesses didn't have to close, or at least, they chose to close even though they were allowed to stay open. Why should everyone else pay for that?

Never mind all the ones making them work regardless of furlough

It was fine as a short term measure. Absolute piss take beyond 3 weeks

Nohardsell when furlough is over you’ll have to find another group to shame on here.

NoHardSell so what would your alternative be? Seeing people lose their homes? If you have a mortgage you don't get much help from Universal Credit.