What is the long term plan for schools?

[TeaAndASitDown]

My 5yo is back at school and it seems to be a nurturing and calm environment so far. However, the school is only running at about 15% capacity I'd guess.

With no further lockdown planned over the summer, what are the govt planning to do about education come September?

Will they scrap social distancing in schools, or will all children only attend half the time? I can't think of any other real option?

Personally I would like to see a strict lockdown over summer, eradicate community transmission, properly quarantine people coming in to the country. Then we have a fair shot at restarting education properly in September.

I agree there needs to be forward, collaborative planning. You'd think the education minister for Wales would think this when she dropped the clanger that all year groups would be going in and then the summer term would be extended by a week, leaving everyone shocked and worried.........and then not issuing the guidance until a whole week later !

I still don't know what a "full proper" lockdown is.

Spain? No children allowed out for 6 weeks at all, no adults allowed outside at all except a small subselection of key workers?

What is a "full proper lockdown"?

Spain still has circulating virus, so I guess Spain's example isn't a "full proper" lockdown either.

Our schools are planning on part-time provision until Jan across all phases . Schools have one hand tied behind their back though.

For my own children, who were due to take a couple of early GCSEs I'm feeling increasingly concerned at this stage in their education, and for their mental health and wellbeing.

For all children, especially the most vulnerable, I worry about the present and the future.

And for parents, I don't know how long we can keep this up. And yes, women are bearing the brunt of this.

In a short time, the NHS have had huge campaigns to redeploy and bring back staff who have left or retired. They've redesigned the limited spaces in hospitals into hot and cold areas. And other practical measures to keep patients safe from Covid-19. There needs to be some similar forward planning in schools. There's plenty of time between now and September.

I don't know about the nhs, but I do know that many, many teachers who have left the profession in recent years, have done so because they have felt burnt out with the expectations placed upon them by everyone. Constant moving of goalposts wrt the curriculum, exam targets, Sat's targets, attendance targets, less and less funding to achieve higher demands. I don't know many staff who would want to return to that atmosphere, especially with the even greater expectations in the current situation and still, not even £10 extra in the budget to buy hand soap, let alone to fund renting extra space etc.

There may be plenty of time until September, but I think that some people have forgotten that most (all?) hospitals have a plan to cope with situations like this, in terms of reallocating space and separating certain areas in case of infection. I suspect it comes under their major incident planning. I highly doubt that schools have similar. I know for a fact that ours doesn't. Many schools are only just sorting out a lockdown plan in case of Dunblane type incidents. And many, many schools are struggling with that because the buildings, especially the older ones, do not have a footprint that lends itself to this kind of thing.
Our school simply does not have the space to accommodate all children in the smaller bubbles that we have been told we need. It's fine with one year group, but we could not cope with anymore and still follow the current guidance.
As for other workers, once shops are open again, the workers children need to go somewhere. Many retail workers simply cannot afford to use paid childcare and rely on grandparents or other family members. What happens to those children when the shops re-open - employers are, understandably, not going to allow their employees to stay at home, yet current guidance says that grandparents should not be looking after their dgc.
I'm in a vulnerable category and will be returning to work in a school because if vulnerable staff were allowed to stay home, we could not open. My OH is also vulnerable, but will be returning to 'work' caring for our dgc as otherwise their parents would have no job to return to.
The whole situation has been badly thought out, with apparently no realisation that action 'a' leads to consequence 'b' etc.

There needs to be some similar forward planning in schools. There's plenty of time between now and September.

Anyone saying this just has no idea how schools actually work and has clearly not had to deal with the DfEs incompetence over the last few weeks.

There needs to be some similar forward planning in schools. There's plenty of time between now and September

And where are these children going to be taught?!

@cantkeepawayforever It all sounds very frustrating, I don't understand why there isn't more collaboration with schools.

Forward planning though, every day I went into work there was change, new process, new PPE which we needed to be for tested on when the previous masks ran out. When staff didn't have a fitted mask the rota's had to be quickly changed so they weren't exposed in high risk areas.

This has been going on for weeks and still we see changes made every single day to adapt. Its probably never going to be perfect or ideal in schools for teachers and children, maybe you will never be able plan enough, but something needs to change by September to accommodate education. If the R rate is still below 1. And I hope you get more support from the government, I really do.

I'm still not convinced schools should have closed, although to stay open testing needed to be much more widespread and quicker to avoid unecessary self isolation by staff. The government has managed to get itself into a situation it can't get out of.

There is no plan at all for September yet. TBH, we have no idea what our school will look like after Monday. Locally, some schools that took yr 6 back are know saying they can't continue.

And where are these children going to be taught?!

This is the crux of it.

There will not be enough flaming portacabins in the country to accommodate this.

In theory you might be able to move a couple of classes to places like sports halls or community centres, but that's limited in the number of those available (and this will impact teaching of PE) and has certain questions about safeguarding children and teachers off school premises. You can't put a single class and teacher in a building with only one room for this reason. Equally the lack of school lunch provision in this situation is relevant. How is that dealt with?

Online lesson provision could be a lot better, but this ultimately comes back to needing oversight and support at a central government level. It also has considerable limitation in that it restricts pupils ability to ask questions and for teachers to aid children who are struggling. It also makes it difficult to stretch brighter kids.

Engagement via a screen is so much harder on multiple levels. It's harder to plan, harder to keep kids attention and it's harder for kids to simply sit for a hour maintaining their concentration. Even the best and most attentive kids are struggling with it because of the level of discipline it requires. It has to be enforced by parents and we know that that's realistic with parents still at home and becomes more unrealistic as they return to work.

The only viable plan there is, if we decide children MUST all be educated, is part time attendance - which still involves huge numbers in schools at the same time (something felt to be too risky by the unions in Wales). Once you have hundreds of high schools pupils in, you've almost lost the argument about what the point is of part time attendance is anyway. The sheer numbers mean the risk reaches a level where you might as well have them all back.

Ultimately by September I think any semblance of trying to socially distance children will crumble for this reason.

There is no viable alternative plan. The teachers can't magic one up. Nor can the government either...

In our local school the requested year groups were back for one day. 4 bubbles. Then 2 bubbles burst (child had temperature / cough). Those bubbles plus teacher and TA have now been off for 2 days waiting for test results. Will they be back on Monday - who knows. Depends if the test gets lost or takes 7 days like some are. One day of school is hardly great for parents that need to go to work, and probably more unsettling for the child than not going in at all.

What about when the autumn colds season kicks in, there’s always lots of kids coughing by end of September. The bubbles are going to be off far more than they’re in. The powers that be are surely going to have to find another way? We need local drop in test centres with instant results, otherwise it’ll be organised chaos.

@Bluebell1995 With respect, timetabling students into school isn't just a case of changing a rota. To try and put it in a hospital context this is what we have dealt with so far.

Here's a hospital with wards of 10 patients. Now the wards can only hold 5 patients but you must look after the same number of patients. Oh and you won't have any extra staff to oversee this.
You need to perform heart surgery, lung surgery, repair broken bones and brain surgery. However you can only fit a quarter of the operating team in the room at once and only use a quarter of the operating theatres you have available.

Can you quickly see how the logistics become a nightmare.

Timetabling involves rooming, staffing and children. Our current year 11 have 60 different groupings depending on the subjects they have taken. That's just one year group. Preparing a timetable in normal times takes weeks. It would be pointless to create multiple timetables now without knowing the government restrictions that will be in place in September.

Schools have been attempting to plan throughout but lots of schools plans get thrown away every time the DfE makes an announcement. Many schools planned rotas, DfE said no. Many schools planned for half a year group, DfE then came out and said only a quarter.

@redtoothbrush part time would be better than not at all though.

I think children will have been mingling throughout the summer holidays and therefore social distancing will have long gone out the window with them by September! Obviously if the guidelines are still to teach children 2m apart it will cause huge disruption, as it is now. I can forsee the government reducing it to 1m or none at all maybe. Depending on the infection levels at that point.

I'm a primary school teacher with a Y7 child. I really really hope schools can open to more children in September My DS is dyslexic and home learning just doesn't work for him. His (state) school has been amazing with a full timetabled day of online lessons through teams but it's hard for him without the actual physical support of his teachers and his motivation is dropping day by day.
I help where I can but I'm back in school more now and to be honest he doesn't always welcome the help so it's not great for our day to day relationship! He was doing so well in school before lockdown and I can see that progress slipping away. There will be countless others like him, not disadvantaged, not vulnerable but becoming disengaged and struggling. I don't know what the answer is, what school will look like and how viable it will be but I sincerely hope he will be back in September in some capacity.

There will probably be part time schooling for most years to reduce the number of children in school at any one time.

As the furlough scheme starts to wind down over the summer and employees who can’t work from home have to return to work, schools will have to return to full time operation.

Parker231, I tend to agree with you that schools "have to" return to normal but I genuinely dont know how we achieve that without just saying "OK all back to normal, were going to ignore the virus and everyone takes their chances". Some staff and parents would go with that, some would be glad to, but enough won't as to make it impossible.

Posters on various thread keep saying how well the nhs have done and how schools need to do the same.

Actually, what the nhs have done is stop doing all but the most urgent care plus covid.

That’s exactly what schools have done.

If the nhs opens up again and then numbers rise, the nhs will be in danger of being overwhelmed and I guess there’s the potential of another lockdown.

But posters keep haranguing teachers and shrieking “open schools fully”.

Why are schools given the same respect that the nhs are, when actually as institutions they’ve dealt with this crisis in a similar way?

Re the OP, our school currently has 3 plans - all back/blended/none back. Most planning is directed towards the middle scenario but with an awareness that either of the others may happen.

@hercwasonaroll Yes that situation you have described has been happening and still is in hospital.

A&E is now busy. And it has been a logistical nightmare.

No staff - students qualify early and start work, temporarily redeploy and recruit staff who have deregistered or retired.

No space - yes that is a nightmare for schools I appreciate that, and that schools need funding to create space. NHS bought space at private hospitals to provide cancer surgery. Maybe if there was funding, space could be rented from nearby buildings/halls/leisure centres (that's probably ridiculous and I haven't thought it through) but I'm just trying to think what changes could work.

Social distancing - not always possible but just try where we can at work. I guess the space issue might improve if social distancing reduces.

I'm thankful that it's not me who has to figure it all out as it does sound like a nightmare. Good luck with it all.

part time would be better than not at all though.

What is the point in part time?

You still have 100s of pupils seeing the same maths teacher, or geography teacher regardless of whether they are full time or part time at high school.

At primary school you merely create a nightmare for childcare issues - especially for key workers. And that has huge knock on effects.

What is the ultimate goal of part time provision? How does it reduce risk to a level which is markedly lower than normal hours to make it worth the loss of capacity elsewhere in the labour provision chain?

I don't believe that allowing 1000 pupils back to school at the same time rather than 2000 pupils reduces risks by the time you look at where there is other social crossover - specialist subject teachers, siblings, children socialising outside school (with children they shouldn't), parents in the same work places but with children in different groups.

By the time you look at the network of social interaction of 1000 pupils it rapidly renders the point of part time attendance 'to reduce risk' as utterly pointless. It does achieve that and is merely an inconvenience.

Part time attendance only has a point with limited numbers returned to school. That's lost when you return them all.

That's my point.

It becomes a farcial exercise to attempt anything but a full school return once you get past a certain number of children. You've effectively got a huge percentage of the local population caught in the social interaction chain.

Ultimately it has to come down to localisation. The schools will have to fully reopen as normal. If there is an outbreak in a local community all the nearest schools in the vincinity will have to shut. That's it. There won't be national closures.

There isn't a viable alternative unfortunately.

That's why keeping the schools closed for longer in the short term may well be preferable because it reduces the risk of later localised closures further down the line.

At least you have the option to cancel surgeries though, and call people in at short notice. School can't do that.

Even with funding you'd need desks, IT infrastructure, safeguarding and risk assessments. At least private healthcare is there and set up ready to go. The nightingale hospitals were overseen as national projects, not by an individual hospital.

Students have qualified now, that's only a few extra and less than the number of teachers leaving the profession in July. Good luck getting anyone back into teaching!!

It is an absolute nightmare and making plans now is futile when the government will change everything again in a few weeks. Best to sit tight, gather information and be ready for whatever Boris says next.

DC's school have some of the 3 year groups (not sure of the percentage) and key worker children. The YR, 1 & 6 are only in 2 days each, so I can't see it being extended further.

My 6YO Yr 2 DS is really struggling now. He is young for the year and I regret that I didn't hold him back a year anyway, I think it will be worse now. Having got this far through school now, I feel it would do more harm than good if I asked to hold him back a year now.

I'm struggling, working more than full time from home for the LA. I don't know what the answer is.

@smileeachday Yes I agree, services were very much reduced previously to cope. As in schools.

That's not the case from next month though so we have plans in place to fully resume service in our area from next month. It is going to be very difficult, but we have to find a way.

My child's secondary teachers have worked really hard and I appreciate them engaging them for this long. I do see how hard it must be for teachers, I really do.

I like having the children at home, they're no bother to me, but I miss them being educated with their peers as e-learning doesn't replace a teacher in person. Even part time would be fine. They are home alone every week day and they're isolated. I fear for their mental health.

Maybe if there was funding, space could be rented from nearby buildings/halls/leisure centres (that's probably ridiculous and I haven't thought it through) but I'm just trying to think what changes could work.

My local high school serves 2000 pupils. Within the local area it is the local sport centre. There are 5 local community centres with rooms big enough within 2 miles of the school. There is 1 hotel with space for maybe 3 or 4 classes. So we maybe could find about 10 classrooms - but you can't have single teachers working in isolation on different locations for safeguarding reasons. There's no other community provision spaces before you get into the catchment area of the next high school. And you've not even considered the needs of 6 primary schools in that area. If you stuck classes in pubs you'd maybe get another 10 to 15 rooms to make it to a total of 25 extra classroom but the cost of that plus the safeguarding issues mean that's not viable either. That's literally all the space in a 3 mile radius of the school that is possible.

Across the Borough the situation is even more acute in some areas with even less facilities. Some will have more but if you consider the sheer number of classrooms needed even the areas with the most provision can't magic up the space.

And that's without me considering the 6 local primary schools in the area and what additional classroom space they might need.

It's a complete nonstarter as an idea to try and find additional space outside school premises.

That's not the case from next month though so we have plans in place to fully resume service in our area from next month. It is going to be very difficult, but we have to find a way
I guess hospitals have the power to reduce numbers by staggering when people are called in - so waiting lists become longer as you work through them more slowly? I hope the government don’t slam you guys for that after this is over. Schools can only do the same by not having all children in, and that’s when we get slammed.

My child's secondary teachers have worked really hard and I appreciate them engaging them for this long. I do see how hard it must be for teachers, I really do

Thank you. I absolutely appreciated the work the nhs have done throughout, and how tough the planning is for a return to full provision is.

I heartily dislike the setting up of one service against another, as we are very much in the same boat.

@smileeachday No it's exactly the same list as before Covid. 1 patient booked every 5 minutes. Including donning, doffing and cleaning. How we will socially distance the waiting room, we'll have to trial it out or find more waiting areas! I don't know yet how many will attend their appointments. But we used to estimate accurately based on previous attendance and overbook the lists accordingly.

I wonder if the schools opened to everyone, how many children would attend. I'd imagine most of them.

Yes I'm sorry I brought up the whole NHS/Education comparisons. It's just 2 huge organisations trying to work around Covid at a national and local level. But they're very different, I see that.

I know my son's school have done everything in their power to continue his education remotely and they've done well. Fingers crossed for September.