Unions blocking schools re-opening?

[Confusedbutheyho]

Just been off the phone to a friend who’s married to a teacher and they’re hearing a lot of conflicting news re unions.

Many are saying June won’t happen for re-opening. Is that possible that the unions veto it and stop it going ahead?

I don't get complaining about teachers getting paid, they are working so hard right now in stressful situations.

DD is in Y2 and gets work sent daily, which is marked with comments. Headteacher sends weekly videos of himself reading a book for the children and comments occasionally on individual pupils work. Plus teachers tailoring work for each pupil not just sending out the same thing.

Teachers certainly aren't at home doing nothing.

@MadameMinimes

That is your school’s generous reading of the guidelines. Primaries are being told all in full time for The first three years groups and then all other years ASAP full time.

Does that sound safe to you? Or even feasible?

I will support whatever our DCs' school decides about when they make school safe. We are very early in this pandemic and we have very little knowledge of the virus as yet.

I'm WFH full time, it is difficult at times. However, one child at home, another at school and multiple school runs would be harder.

The summer holidays gives us 6 more weeks thinking time and experience of the virus. As well as 6 further weeks of falling transmission.

This should happen in tandem...

Macca I've seen that a lot.

But u am sure MPs are actually higher risk as a group than teachers.

More of them will die. I am not saying that is a bad thing......

A backlash against teachers is exactly what the government want. They have set out guidelines that are impossible for most schools to meets due to building and staffing issues, and offer little support in keeping staff safe. They say the rules that keep the rest of society safe don’t apply in schools. But when schools safe they can’t open safely it’s teachers and heads that are lazy. Win for the government.

^*“ I heard a teacher earlier asking why is it considered 'safe' for her to teach her Reception class , but not for her to see her own grandchildren. That summed it up for me.”

The answer to that is campaigning to see relatives. If teachers said “we’re not working till we’re allowed to see loved ones” I’d back them.*^

My god it's a good job everyone hasn't taken that attitude isn't it?

@Hadenoughfornow Why are MPs higher risk as a group than teachers?

It was much more dangerous before schools closed and there hasn't been any mass cases linked to schools that I'm aware of? We live in a hotspot, I know teachers at a number of schools in the area and no one has heard of any cases at all.

The R. number is falling, if it continues to fall then it should hopefully be safer than March.

That said I do think June is too soon, we are in Scotland and it will be August at earliest which is fine by me but if numbers continue to fall and people go back to work and teachers still complain about going back they will get very little sympathy I imagine.

The thing is teachers, like all professions, are not saints. There will 100% be the odd one who is just enjoying being off and wants longer. My inlaws are all teachers, FIL can't wait to get back, MIL was angry that she even had to attend a zoom staff meeting when she was 'off', BIL has refused to work from home as he 'doesn't have a laptop or tablet' (he does!).

I think giving teachers until August/Sept (Scotland/England) to prepare would be the most sensibe option.

430 MP's are males and the average age of Mps is 50 i believe.

BelleSausage- not at all. As I said upthread, I’m more than happy to volunteer to go back precisely because I have absolute faith that my HT will have measures in place to go back safely or not at all. If I worked for the sort of HT who was telling people to ignore self isolation rules before lockdown and come in with symptoms then I’d not be going back.
If I was in a primary where the Head was saying, “we’ll bring in one year group at a time or half of YR, 1 and 6, and here’s the systems I’ll put in place to keep everyone safe. Who wants to volunteer?”then I‘d be in. If my HT said “we’ll bring them all in at once and try to social distance if we can. All the staff have to be in and we’ll be back to normal by July” I’d be staying home with the backing of my union.
I think schools can reopen. But not all at once and I think we need to manage expectations. It isn’t going to be school as normal, even in September. It is going to be a gradual process.

Unions bugger off.

I'm a teacher though in Scotland. I'm desperate to get back to school. Right now I am providing work for all my classes (I provide.mccrone cover so teach 9 classes across the primary school a week) I am also providing videos showing practical parts of my lessons, completed 10 pages of school evaluations during the inset in Monday and currently I'm helping write policy about trauma and loss to be rolled out when we go back. I'm doing this with my 18 month old running around as my husband is back at work. Believe me I want to go back!

However, while I think the supermarket workers and others at work just now without ppe are very brave and I'm grateful to them, with all due respect teaching a primary 1 class is very different to their role - not many people will need help blowing their nose in the supermarket or will lick their friends or will need you to lean over them to show them how to complete some work. They won't need help to tie their laces or open their snack.

I'm first aider - every day I deal with scrapped knees and nose bleeds. This might need more than just the rubber gloves I use if I'm lucky enough to find them.

We don't have the funds to provide every child with concrete materials for maths or their own reading book etc, they share. That's what's always happened in schools. Now we can't do that so where are the extra resources coming from?

These are just some of the things to consider when schools return.

@BriefDisaster, there is a lot we are not aware of, as we have not had any test, track and trace program, since the first few cases. There has been no discussion of any risk factors for children that have become dangerously ill from the virus.

I don't feel I have enough information to assess the risk of sending my children to school and HTs have that responsibility multiplied many times.

^*Why can’t people see the difference between society needs vs individual needs? We’ve become so fucking selfish that we cannot even contemplate that something that might be in the best interest of society might trump the individual need or right. It was not in the best interest of every 18 year conscript to fight in the war or for an individual nurse to work in ICU during COVID but it was/is better for society.

So yes it makes perfect sense that the govt says you can’t see your grandkids or more then 1 friend (not a society need) but can be asked to go back to work (a need for society) Every single contact with another person is a risk ..... we can reduce risk by social distancing, hygiene and every single one person less each person come into contact with lessens the risk BUT we need people to shop for food (or they will starve), provide essential services (or other people might starve/die/suffer extreme hardship etc) so we ask them to go to work. This massively reduced the amount of contacts AT A POPULATION LEVEL. But it’s bad for society ..... billions of pounds of debt caused by furlough is bad for society; children especially young children missing out in education is bad for society so we can’t just ignore this. Asking more people to go back to work and schools to reopen increases the ‘contact’ of the total population BUT the govt have balanced this against the ‘bad’ of catastrophic economic effect and education and welfare that school provide. You going to see your grandchild is not a societal need so in order to keep overall contact lower then ‘normal’ yes you can go to school/work, no you can’t see your mates or family. It’s really not that hard.
Children need to go to school ..... we are not child care. We educate, it’s important. If you don’t believe that then home school forever.
There is an increase risk, as school leaders we have to mitigate this as much as possible. The DfE guidance is that Shielding and vulnerable teachers should not go into school. If you remove that group of staff and obviously no over 70, teachers are more at risk of dying in a road accident on the way to work then from COVID.
Children need school, society needs children to be at school.,*^

Excellent post. I can't believe that people can't understand why they have to go to work but can't see their family just yet.

You've summed up very well.

Shielding and vulnerable teachers should not go into school.

Except that bit is wrong. You need to remove the 'and vulnerable'.

I'm just so fucking sick of all this. I've been made to feel like a monster for wanting to get my kids back into childcare to protect mine and DH's job. At the end of the day everyone just wants to do what's best for them and their family. Unfortunately these things are often conflicting.
The fact remains that the risk of a healthy person dying from COVID is very small and as a nation we're going to need to accept a small degree of risk or stay in lockdown for years.

People who keep saying ‘Teachers won’t get much sympathy if they strike’ etc are missing the important fact that they’re not looking for sympathy. They’re looking for the same safety rules as applied to the rest of the society. Sympathy is as useful as their current PPE provision.

And tbh the problem with people being shitty and unpleasant about teachers so regularly (in general) is that no was it actually doesn’t matter what you think. By being nasty and complaining about them year in year out (insert snide comment about ‘long holidays’ here) you’ve created a status quo where teachers are used to being seen as the bad guys and don’t give a toss whether you ‘sympathise’ with their need to be safe or not.

The issue is liability.

Headteachers are being asked to follow very vague guidelines and make huge discretionary calls about the health and safety of staff, children and parents.

The layout and facilities of school are all so different so suggestions that you can do things this way or that way are often impossible for schools to comply with.

The government hasn't taken any of the responsibility of this.

If an incident were to happen it leaves schools completely exposed and they may not be properly insured as a result. The schools can not reopen fully if they don't comply with insurance policies and public liability requirements.

For example there is talk of screens in corridors to separate them. So what if the screens fall or if there is a fire?

The threshold of risk is different to that of a hospital for example because you have so many minors to account for.

You also have issues with bottlenecks as entry points to school grounds - child safety means you have few entrance points to grounds for drop off collection so staggered drop off and collection may not be helpful anyway if you are unable to set up a one way system into and out of the grounds.

And there is provision of toilet facilities if you have children working outside and not allowed into certain spaces inside because they are being used by another group.

And there is the SEN issue where teaching assistants are there to manage kids with behavioural issues on a one yo one basis. If they are redeployed as teachers (which they are not trained for nor paid for), does that put staff and other children at risk (given one of the incidents I know has happened in my sons class this year, this is a particular concern of mine).

And that's before you consider the disruption and whether it will produce anxiety. The last week of school before lockdown was horrendous and the kids were really struggling with it. Even the youngest ones.

Whilst there are risks to children not being in school, whilst a child isn't in their care they are not the liability of the school. They have a duty of care to do what they can but their are limits to that. Once they are on the premises though they have a far higher level of responsibility which they may genuinely be unable to fulfill to a satisfactory level.

It leaves some in the dreadful position of knowing that some children are at risk if the school is closed but the risks of opening the school mean they can not do so under the circumstances being suggested.

I think it's poorly thought out by government who really have no idea about how school operate on the ground. They really are regarded as a baby sitting service first and foremost and the total lack of respect for teachers (and children) is a sight to behold.

As far as I understand it, unions don't have the unilateral power to block schools opening per se. However, if enough teachers refuse to return to a particular school, then in practice it can't safely open. Unions would have to ballot their members for strike action though and I don't know if they've got time to do it. Of course, teachers could decide to resign en masse or to call in sick en masse.

But mainly I think the unions are just flexing their muscles, which seems to me to be their raison d'etre in every industry, and is why I have never and will never join one. For me, the benefits they bring don't outweigh the fact I'd have to go on strike if they told me to. Since I'd refuse to strike, I think my union is quite happy I'm not a member!

How many people are going to be able to go back.to work with just yr,r1 and 6 in? That's fuck all to do with unions.

I do hear fairy tales about when the unions were powerful, but not during my career.

People comparing supermarkets to schools - when was the last time you saw customers in supermarkets walking around with their hands in their mouths, touching everything they see as they go? Most shoppers know to cover their mouths and noses if they cough or sneeze. Most of them know not to run up to supermarket workers and hug them or hold their hand. The same cannot be said for reception children.

Worth repeating that the ONS has analysed covid deaths by occupation.

And teachers have been less likely to die if covid than the average working population.

That's true for men and women.

And schools were fully open with no distancing, PPE or reduced class sizes right up until lockdown.

Worth remembering as well that the Uk isn't alone here. Many countries have already sent schools back on various schemes. Sweden never closed.

I don't really get this. We are going to have to open schools eventually. We can't go on not forever. The government is not asking for all years to open and with limited class sizes too.

Head teachers can refuse to open their school if they don’t think it’s safe. They are ultimately responsible and liable for what happens and if they risk assess and don’t have the staff, rooms or facilities, the decision lays with them.

It’s the head teachers union that you want to be looking at.

This one