Italy v England. Why the different levels of sympathy?

[Whatsthis1515]

I am noticing that people feel sorry for Italy regarding their death toll but for the UK, people are scathing and pointing fingers. Why is this? I know Italy was supposed to be a lesson to us, but surely in that case, they didn't do the right thing either?

Interested to know what you all think.

Thanks

Which western countries with a high BAME population Clouds?

Germany has a very white population with the main ethnic group being Turkish who are mostly Guest Workers and still hold Turkish citizenship. They live very separately. There is a huge number of BAME deaths in the UK and in the USA and my fear is that for some physiological reason Covid affects them dispropotionately. It will probably take years until we find out why.

www.britannica.com/place/Germany/Ethnic-groups

True about ethnic groups and diversity here though. That’s why more research in to this area is needed urgently.

plenty of countries with far higher population density than the UK have coped far better.

Belgium and the Netherlands are the two European countries with a greater population density than the UK - Belgium is seemingly doing worse than the UK per 1 million population and the Netherlands isn't doing that great either.

Clavinova,

The crux of my post was that I'm glad the people in my area followed the Irish approach as opposed to the English one. You are creating arguments that aren't even there. I think I have made a fair assertion there, but of course you'll pull some
Bullshit stat from somewhere to argue, because that's what you do on every. single. bloody. thread.

Bullshit stat from somewhere to argue

Deaths per 1 million population is not a 'bullshit stat.'

Ignore the rest of the post there surely.

It is a bullshit stat in this context as it tells very little of the full story.

New Zealand is not a fair comparison, their entire population is less than London and it was easier for them to close borders.

Ignore the rest of the post there surely.
The crux of my post was that I'm glad the people in my area followed the Irish approach as opposed to the English one.

Did you want me to repeat that the Republic of Ireland currently has the 8th highest number of deaths per 1 million population?

You are creating arguments that aren't even there

My original comment was that the ROI were obviously not getting everything right either - I assume their problem relates to an increased number of deaths in care homes.

Yesterday you posted that the British media had completely overlooked the fact that the UK had passed the 30,000 deaths benchmark, which is bizarre - perhaps you have missed everyone comparing deaths per population size as well.

you do on every. single. bloody. thread.

What am I supposed to say to that?

Even going by your stats Ireland's death rate per million (298) is still considerably less than the UKs (475). So it supports my original point, that I'm glad we followed the Irish response.

And my original point was that Ireland is obviously not getting everything right either - to which you have thrown your toys out of the pram over.

Ireland followed the S. Korean model of contact tracing. There were massive outbreaks in care homes which they have explained is a combination of the proximity of people within the homes and the vulnerability of the people in the homes (age, frailty). That applies to all countries.
I think Ireland have done fairly well. The UK were a bit slower to react than Ireland.

It seems that intergenerational living as has been purported to be a factor, is pure bollocks. Living in a care home however is a high risk factor.
Italy's death rate was blamed on intergenerational living, but that's simply not true. Grandparents rarely live with their adult children. Much like the UK.
BAME families in the UK however may live with grandparents in the household. But it's not those who are being affected. It's the elderly in care homes who are being decimated.

Well tbf it makes more sense for NI to follow ROI's policy because they are both very rural countries and it is probably more appropriate. They also both have very white populations, 98% in NI and ROI is similar so unlike global cities like London and NY they will not be affected by the disproportionate effect this virus is having on our BAME population.

My biggest concern with all this "we're so much better than you" oneupmanship is that it is ignoring the huge significance of having a large BAME population and the higher risk to them. If a vaccine becomes available the most vulnerable need to be protected first and if there is any evidence or even suspicion that BAME people are the most at risk then they need to receive it first. Similarly, if there is no vaccine then the white young and healthy population needs to get out there and get infected to increase our immunity rates because they are much lower risk.

And the UK aren't even counting deaths in care homes. So go figure.

@Prontoe - I don't buy the contact tracing theory because in Germany, which is acknowledged as having a robust system, anti-body tests have shown that they only picked up 1 in 10 of those infected. So extensively tracing the contacts of 1 in every 10 can't have made a huge dent in the infection rate.

I am no doubt ageist but the death of young, healthy, BAME people affects me more than deaths in a care home.

So what so those lines on the graphs that say Hospital deaths and Care Home deaths mean?

@Prontoe yes we are!

My brother is a GP and said that we are going for herd immunity without a doubt. The hope is when the antibody tests come out we will of all had it!

Probtoe, where are you getting your info? We’ve been counting care homes deaths for a good while, now.

Even going by your stats Ireland's death rate per million (298) is still considerably less than the UKs (475). So it supports my original point, that I'm glad we followed the Irish response.

I find it strange that you would derive satisfaction in such a minute differential. That aside, Ireland's average population is some 3.5 years less than the UK (a statistician on Andrew Marr this morning suggested risk of death doubled with every 7 years of age) and is far, far less densely populated.

MarginalGain

It wasn't me who brought those stats into it. Clavinova who continually referred to them.

Italy's death rate was blamed on intergenerational living, but that's simply not true.Grandparents rarely live with their adult children.

Although - 2016;

"Sixty-seven percent of 18-34-year-old Italians live with their parents, the latest figures from statistics agency Eurostat show, a figure almost 20 points higher than the European average."

It wasn't me who brought those stats into it. Clavinova who continually referred to them.

I didn't quote those particular stats - you looked them up yourself!

Clavinova, yes, many young adults live at home with their 40 and 50 something parents.
The 2016 census also confirms that just over 1% of Italians live in multi-generational households (most of which will be those 22 year old students)
And exactly the same figure (I can't remember which now, as it's a couple of weeks since we last had to debunk the multi-generational households in Italy myth) in the UK.
One was 1.2 million people, the other 1.3% so different data, but all things considered, same number of people living with Gran.

yes, many young adults live at home with their 40 and 50 something parents

Well, perhaps with their 60-70 year old parents as well.

2012 -
"Among 30- to 44-year-olds, 25.3% live with their mothers.This drops to 11.8% for those between 45 and 64. Of those of all ages who do not live with their parents, 54% said they had close relatives within a 30-minute walk."

just over 1% of Italians live in multi-generational households

The stats don't reveal social habits of course - childcare, family businesses, Sunday lunch...

"Family businesses make up 85% of all business in Italy and provides 70% of employment. However, this remarkable feat is not what sets Italy apart from the rest of Europe, what makes Italy special is the family involvement in the management of family business."

"Approximately 66% of Italian family businesses are also managed by family members."

Yes, we all moan that we have to spend Sundays and all bank holidays with the extended family and yes, most family businesses are run by members of the family (clue is kind of in the "family business" bit, no?)

But what's that got to do with how the Italian govt has dealt with Coronavirus? Those family businesses (some) were allowed to reopen 6 days ago, and I've not seen the in-laws since 8/3 because they live in a town we aren't allowed to travel to.