For those who want schools to go back..

[pfrench]

.. tell us how you think it should work. Primary or secondary.

In your ideal world.

How would social distancing be adhered to?
How about drop off and pick up?
How would classrooms operate?
How about lunchtimes and breaktimes?
What about after school childcare provision?
What about staff who are sheidling?
What about children who are sheilding?
What about staff who have family members who are sheilding?
Should only some children go back? Who should they be and why?

So many education and school experts on here, it will be interesting to read your safe solutions.

Do you actually believe a thin apron, a pair of gloves and a mask will stop you from getting COVID or potentially pass it onto someone else??

Greenloprry, are you genuinely saying that you believe that this PPE has no effect whatever on infection / transmission of the virus?

So you are saying that there is no reason why healthcare workers should wear these, as they are of no use, and that you would be entirely happy for every medical professional related to you, or treating you, to work without any of this PPE because it doesn't have any effect?

I can construct a semi-rational argument that, once the infection number in the community is extremely small (so maybe at Danish levels or lower), the risk of a teacher in a classroom coming into direct contact with a COVID case in a classroom of strictly limited numbers is small enough to make it unnecessary for all teachers to wear PPE (though I do think it should be available for those doing intimate care for younger / SEN pupils; those dealing with sick or injured children; and for those responsible for supervising a child with symptoms in isolation until collected).

The argument that PPE doesn't protect at all so its absence is perfectly OK is not one I'd use in constructing that argument for lack of universal PPE in schools.

Because this problem will still be here in September, so closing until September isn’t really that practical

That is exactly what many other countries are doing though.

The problem won't be the same in September because ( if we are sensible about how we reverse lockdown) the R value will be lower and hopefully the test and trace system will be fully operational and working robustly which will make a huge difference.

I remember helping to do timetabling one year by using the entire floor of a classroom one weekend with bits of paper and suchlike.

FedUp21 those not opening until sept are doing that as they break up for the summer early to mid June anyway. Spain, Italy, Ireland all do and have approx 9 weeks of summer hols.

Those who do not eg Germany, Denmark, France are re opening for a few valuable weeks. China also has reopened schools.

Because this problem will still be here in September, so closing until September isn’t really that practical.

The thing is, IF we continue to bear down on transmission of COVID all the way to September, through continuation of social distancing, testing and tracking and gradual loosening / tightening of different measures in response to changes in the R number to keep it well under 1, total cases will fall, hopefully to very low levels seen in e.g. Denmark, South Korea etc.

That means it becomes safer to open 'high transmission risk, no social distancing, large number' environments such as schools (plus universities, some social events etc) in September, simply because the numerical probability of an infected person being present becomes much smaller.

That's why the longer timeframe works better - unless we deliberately WANT to create a continuous series of waves of infection to build herd immunity.

Sorry, X-posted with EducatingArti.

It's secret actually wales have specifically said schools won't open on 1June. Today wales confirmed they would broadly follow the UK. That could mean partial reopening mid June etc.

@fedup21 it really isnt at all

The countries that are closing until September (Italy/Spain etc) break up in June so it makes sense

France/Germany/Netherlands/Switzerland/Norway they are all opening schools on some kind of phased basis

Wales is interesting because she actually said the situation wouldnt change on June 1 and that a plan would be given in advance

My view is that schools will have some movement and change next half term. Some years will go back on some kind of phased basis.
Because it has to be a phased and planned response. I dont think it will be completely normal until October half term at the earliest (depending on vaccine/second waves etc) but this level of shutdown wont last beyond half term. I am 99% certain my Year 6 DD will be back in school in some capacity over the next half term.

I am 50/50 on whether my Year 2 will at all see a classroom before September

@Howaboutanewname experimenting is kind of the backbone of Science though. We cant stay in a holding pattern like a plane circling in the air for much longer than the next 3 weeks. A controlled and slow phased return checking the impact at each stage is IMO the only way out of this

Those who do not eg Germany, Denmark, France are re opening for a few valuable weeks. China also has reopened schools

Denmark are opening 8/10 to a class including the teacher. They also have significantly fewer cases there.

France are planning on opening some schools in some areas with very reduced numbers starting next week. Parents and schools don’t sound very happy about it and it’s voluntary. From what I’ve read, Germany sounds similar and it varies massively by area with schools needing to offer something to each year group before the summer-it could just be a day or two in school. Perhaps someone living in these countries would confirm this and whether it’s voluntary?

I would be happy to go back 8/10 to a class for some year groups-with appropriate safety precautions in place-like those few countries who are planning to reopen before summer.

Nowhere in Europe is planning to open anywhere near ‘business as normal’ though.

@MrsArchchancellorRidcully actually they said that yesterday, today the said they are not opening schools in June.

*The thing is, IF we continue to bear down on transmission of COVID all the way to September, through continuation of social distancing, testing and tracking and gradual loosening / tightening of different measures in response to changes in the R number to keep it well under 1, total cases will fall, hopefully to very low levels seen in e.g. Denmark, South Korea etc.

That means it becomes safer to open 'high transmission risk, no social distancing, large number' environments such as schools (plus universities, some social events etc) in September, simply because the numerical probability of an infected person being present becomes much smaller.
*
That's why the longer timeframe works better - unless we deliberately WANT to create a continuous series of waves of infection to build herd immunity.

This only works if people continue in lockdown or a variation of until then. Which they won't.

You think people who don't want schools to go back until September are also willing to spend the next 4 months inside with no play dates, family visits, days out, UK holidays, trips to the park?? Look at the other threads, people won't do it.

Keeping a more strict lockdown until September is more linked with a greater second wave where everyone suddenly circulates. In flu season which the NHS can't cope with.

@cantkeepawayforever I never said that did I?
PPE actually means long sleeved apron it’s different to just the basic normal thin apron (this is what I stated). I’m speaking from my line of work and what equipment we have. I’ve had senior bosses say go sparingly and every week there’s no rules and changes on how we work it’s shocking.

Unless you work in a hospital you don’t ACTUALLY know what is going on..... I have seen Drs sat in hospital beds as well as ward Clark’s!
Don’t believe everything you hear on the news FGS!

Where we live in Switzerland it will be half classes back for half days from Monday, so lunch at home (which is normal here). Only for kindergarten, primary and non-grammar lower secondary(12-15). No PE for primary. Children walk to school alone anyway so no drop off/pick up problems and the police will have an increased presence near school premises to disperse groups.

Shielding/quarantined teachers/children or with close family shielding stay at home and do remote teaching/learning. This is causing some staff shortages in primary schools. School is compulsory for those not shielding, so parents can be fined for not sending in their children.

The government say they are sending children back to school because children have a right to an education and remote learning isn't a suitable alternative for these groups. A lot of working parents are complaining about school not being full time, eg my neighbour with 3 children who will always have at least one at home.

If all goes well after 4 weeks then the grammar schools will also open and maybe there will be full time school for all.

Where we live in Switzerland it will be half classes back for half days from Monday

How many children approximately are in half a class, just out of interest?

@cantkeepawayforever

If PPE worked and all of the residents have been socially distancing in our care home. Everyone with suspected covid were barrier nursed. Our care home has been closed to visitors since before lockdown and everyone in and out of the houses washing their hands, antibacterial and PPE. Why then do the residents still contract covid?

I’m getting a bit sick of people saying that because NHS staff were shafted by the government teachers should be too. That is fundamentally wrong for two reasons:

Healthcare actually is essential in a way that schools are not. As in proper, life-and-death terms.
The appalling way the government handled ppe and testing in hospitals and care home literally killed (and continues to kill) people. That should be grounds for removing them from office - not a model for how to treat the rest of the population.

I’m a teacher. I’m desperate to get back in to school because I hate remote teaching. It is harder, longer hours and less effective. I’m very worried about the effects on teens mental health - it has really started to show over the last couple of weeks. I’m not worried for my own health on return to school (the only way I could be lower risk is by being even younger).

But I am worried for my vulnerable colleagues, vulnerable children, vulnerable family members of staff and children, and what happens to the whole country if the transmission rate increases. Dismissing those concerns because “teachers aren’t special, nhs staff have died so you should too” is fucking appalling.

How many children approximately are in half a class, just out of interest?

The max class size allowed for the next few weeks where we live is 15, my children have usually been in classes of 24-28.

@Fedup21 and of course they shouldnt but I dont think anyone truly thinks that is a good idea. But neither do I think it is a good idea to let the 7 week half term go by without some kind of sensible phased approach with close monitoring and sensible control. I see this as a far better and sensible idea than leaving it until September

I also think Secondary wont come much before the end of June either

@itsasecret where is that I can only see not June 1 and there will be a plan

@cantkeepawayforever I agree with @headachehair allowing some children back is a far better and easier way to control and track and trace then allowing much more outdoor movement

@OceanOrchid that is not what people are saying.
But how long do people expect to stay at home for? Because while ever there is NO CURE does that mean the kids will stay off school till one is found.
My gripe with teachers like you is how you disregard that you ARE an essential service and you have been for decades. What do you mean? If school hubs shut and you fall sick tomorrow I don’t know how you would be treated if all the nurses were home due to having “no childcare” provided by the teachers.
We should work together! I’m sick of hearing teachers speak like this many parents couldn’t work if it was not for schools it’s an ESSENTIAL service that keeps other essential services rolling over too.

"This only works if people continue in lockdown or a variation of until then. Which they won't.

You think people who don't want schools to go back until September are also willing to spend the next 4 months inside with no play dates, family visits, days out, UK holidays, trips to the park?? Look at the other threads, people won't do it."

Surveys have shown the opposite of your statement. If clear communication is made by the government about why it is needed. Surveys have shown the majority of people will accept it
Also it may be possible to lift lockdown a little where it effects people the most, eg allowing small groups of family or friends to meet. This should have much less impact on the R value than opening schools
If we send schools back now the danger is we will have to ask people to go back into severe lockdown in August, rather than letting them enjoy some slightly relaxed measures with family/ friends

How quickly can we train people up to be teachers? I am sure loads on Mumsnet have degrees and so could join us. So if you have Maths, any science, English, History, computing, music, geography, art, MFL - please apply to join us.

@Oceanorchid I agree

France has also had a horrific death toll but they are reopening schools next week.

Primary schools open first, with classes of no more than 15. Parents do not have to send their kids in, home schooling can continue. If schools can't accommodate all kids, they can prioritise based on need.

Secondary schools will keep home schooling for a while longer.

In areas that are still 'red' (the worst affected) they can keep schools closed longer.