For those who want schools to go back..

[pfrench]

.. tell us how you think it should work. Primary or secondary.

In your ideal world.

How would social distancing be adhered to?
How about drop off and pick up?
How would classrooms operate?
How about lunchtimes and breaktimes?
What about after school childcare provision?
What about staff who are sheidling?
What about children who are sheilding?
What about staff who have family members who are sheilding?
Should only some children go back? Who should they be and why?

So many education and school experts on here, it will be interesting to read your safe solutions.

@redtickreturn weirdly no I dont think I think the concerned is as much about the areas that havent had it with the second wave than those who have (if that makes sense) there is a balance between the two

@fedup21 I think she is referring to the Munro report that has been recently put out

adc.bmj.com/content/early/2020/05/05/archdischild-2020-319474

Having read it is slightly wishy washy to say the least

@TriangleBingoBongo because it keeps the economy running that’s why. Teachers also expect to leave their kids at school in order to be able to work. It comes hand in hand.

Also children attending hubs at the moment that’s exactly what they are doing “providing children” during this pandemic...... if that’s the case why do you think the school hubs were started in the first place??

I think we’re going round and round about social distancing and space. No it won’t work. Especially the arbitrary 2m which is based on zero science.

Patrick Vallance would disagree.

I think maybe shielded kids stay off. Likewise staff who are being shielded.

Babysitting not educating until September so those whose parents are last to return to work aren't being disadvantaged.

Children return to school as their parents are returning to work via some sort of booking in system. Eg if I'm working 3 days next week then my kids are in school for the same amount.

Suspend fees for breakfast & after school clubs so those who can't afford it aren't forced to use grandparents for wraparound care.

Staggered drop off and collection times to discourage parents from congregating on the yard.

Dvds or iPads instead of playtime (although I hate the idea of this one.)

Brief disaster , I'm a teacher in my sixties. Thank you for not) caring about me. I wanted to cry when I read your heartless message. There is a shortage of teachers in this country due to the awful way education ministers and head teachers have behaved for the last decade. Bullying from senior management, pupils and parents has become the norm in many schools. As is age discrimination and constructive dismissal.
As for the post suggesting there were loads of young teachers waiting around to stand in for me....Huge classes, lack of equipment and books and support staff due to education alongside side health taking the brunt of austerity measures means NO there are not lots of young teachers available because against get a background recruitment has been dire. So they can't be popped into schools as another post suggests. I find it difficult to understand how people hand over their children everyday to people who you think that poorly of.

I'm very glad to have found this thread. Local friends on fb seem to be of ' no school till a vaccine is found'. My DS (8) mental health is awful. He has refused to engage with school work. I am working ft from home so he is spending hours and hours on fortnite as it's the only thing that means he gets to chat to his friends. He frequently tells me he is stupid, worthless, occasionally he says he wants to die. I'm trying my best. I have deadlines. I cannot home school him and he refuses to engage. I am so scared for him.

I've read the scientific views, research etc and believe the country is going to have to choose in the end.

I want DS back to school. However I am in wales which apparently as decided they know better than England. I live in a border town. If England goes back and wales doesn't we have families who will send their high school kids back and their primary kids won't as they go to school in different countries. How will that even work? Buses take the welsh kids to England. Will that be allowed.

I just want DS back, even if a day or so a week.

There’s a real thing to discuss here about ability or willingness to adapt.

DH is a hospital consultant. He’s overweight. I’d rather he stayed home on full salary. Indefinitely, until the threat has 100% passed.

The problem was, people needed his skills. The country needed him, so he had to go to work and do his best to adapt.

And there’s a balance, and a need to live with some degree of risk. So he’s been doing some things that aren’t strictly in his job role, he’s worked hours he doesn’t usually work. My own work had to adapt round that. He had to massively adapt, he had to touch covid patients. I had to adapt to a new level of worry and risk.

That’s true of all of us, otherwise we’d never set foot in a supermarket or within 2 metres of other humans outside our houses.

He could potentially have refused to work. Though I think he’d have struggled to justify that when he was being paid by the state and his skills were required.

It has been a deeply unpleasant experience. Fortunately he has had the correct PPE.

As far as I can see, people involved in schools (working in them or sending their children in) will have to adapt to a new normal and accept increased risk. If they can’t do that, they will have to stay home. But I don’t think they can expect to be paid, and nor do I think parents should be fined if they choose to keep their kids home.

Teachers who are shielding should be paid to stay home. We have nurses being paid to stay home because they have underlying conditions.

Schools are not a special case, but everyone should have the right to choose whether or not they are willing to adapt and accept risk. I can ask for unpaid leave from my NHS job if I’m not willing to go to work.

I completely understand why people need schools and nurseries to reopen. It’s necessary for the economy as well as everyone’s mental health. As a nursery owner, I am also desperate to get my business back up and running. We are open for key worker children, but there are so few we are barely breaking even.

However, the UK is in a different situation to nearly every other country. The death rates here are staggering. If the decision to reopen schools and nurseries is made on those reasons alone, there could be absolute carnage.

Schools must reopen when it’s safe and not before.

@spikeyball I was referring to children's mental health issues. I was not taking away how difficult it is for parents. I don't have it easy but I know people have it worse. My point was we don't have a choice at the moment. We have to just do the best we can. Sending schools back has to be very carefully done we are only just over the peek. We can't afford as a country to get this wrong otherwise all we have done these last 7 weeks is pointless.

Well then other settings that are essential should also stay closed.

But your husband had correct PPE. Teachers are have to get close to students but aren't being given any.
It is also really not at all just about risk to teachers. It is also about how much R will be increased by schools going back and whether this is the wise thing to do both for public health and the economy right now.
Some of the latest research from Germany is showing that children do spread the virus and is social distancing can't be managed effectively and there aren't enough sinks for good handwashing etc then we need to be careful.
I think it will be worse for the economy if we send schools back, R goes above zero and we have to lockdown again, than if we are cautious and wait a few more weeks but get a better chance of keeping R below 0 as numbers of cases have reduced much more and there is a more robust test and trace system in place.

@Daffodil101 I agree about your post and your DH being a consultant and him being vital.

It seems there’s 2 sides and I agree with another poster. People who are worried and are still willing to take the risk and do their jobs those that feel like the risk is too great by September that‘S their choice and they can pick up the short fall of the finical side too I don’t see why others should be expected to work and fund others LONG term.... let them figure it out themselves if they expect to be at home ongoing until a vac is found that actually works!

So time tabling at secondary school is a black art only mastered by a few who can do 4 D chess! Our timetable guru said we can go back as long as we double the number of English Maths and Science teachers, increase a few other subjects, scrap computing and technology plus can we have 60 portacabins kitted our to use as classrooms.

Do you actually believe a thin apron, a pair of gloves and a mask will stop you from getting COVID or potentially pass it onto someone else??
This is all the nurses have at the best of times. The point was that he could give up his job if he wanted to and ask the state for Help but he didn’t.

Consultants and nurses also health workers.. are not working by force it’s by a risky choice!

I don't work in a school but I have done a d understand what teachers are saying about the impossibilities of social distancing.
I think the biggest problem is what sending schools back will do the R value and I think it is too soon.

@EducatingArti I totally agree 👍

Suspend fees for breakfast & after school clubs so those who can't afford it aren't forced to use grandparents for wraparound care

As I said above-we won’t be able to staff these at all if we go back in June, let alone offer them at no charge!

As I said before, all the discussion about children not being affected and not spreading it is not only vague and wishy washy, it also only applies to primary.
There is no suggestion that teens won't both get it (mildly for the most part) and spread it (and they are exceptionally good at spreading any kind of bug).

It has been a deeply unpleasant experience. Fortunately he has had the correct PPE

It seems unlikely we will have any PPE unless we provide it ourselves. Many schools don’t have soap, for goodness sake, that’s even assuming we could get teens to wash their hands regularly (and assuming there was enough sinks etc to push 1,500 people through in a 20 minute break). We accept risk - children vomit and snot and cough all over the bloody place. We are concerned about the viral load issue. We know social distancing won’t happen. We know parents will send their actively symptomatic children into school. We know there are vulnerable amongst our number and that SLT won’t be sympathetic unless forced to be. We know we have very little by the way of supply budget and that inevitably staff are going to be in and out of isolation. We know there is a lack of quality supply teachers even if we could afford to pay them. We know some teens are vile and will lick things and cough on people for fun. We know there is no support out there in law to help us deal with that effectively.

We are scared we are being made to live one big science experiment which if it goes wrong, means we will be losing many staff over the coming months. We are scared for our families and children and most of all, we also fear what may happen to your children and your families.

We also understand the economy needs to get going as soon as possible and the country needs us at our desks. So rather than be critical, think about what measures you will support as a parent or member of the public to get us back - PPE, soap, extra supply budget, laws which force parents to pay for deep cleaning when they send their child to school when he spent 4 hours with grandma yesterday when she has a positive diagnosis, support for permanent exclusion of teens who put us at risk, download the track and trace app and use it....Listen to what is being said, try and be part of the solution. Stop telling us to suck it up and risk dying so you can pay your mortgage. We are people too - parents, friends, wives, husbands, someone’s children. People care about us and want us to be safe. We want you and your families to be safe too.

There are people who are saying schools are not a special case.

In which case let's treat them like a 'not special' case and say that when it's considered normal and safe for 1700 people to crowd into a building with no social distancing or ppe and when it's ok for public transport to be filled to capacity then schools will open.

Yes, he bought his own PPE. Part of adapting, I suppose.

Wales have said no to June openings, so I’d be expecting that in England too.

So in essence, I think if I was a headteacher then I’d present the least worst option and see who was willing to come and give it a go.

In the NHS we were given a least worst option, and for some people that still meant a hell of a risk. In care homes it was far worse. But, regardless, we were told to get on with it, not given a choice. I thought some people might refuse, but they didn’t.

So why don’t we just find out which teachers are willing to work and which aren’t? Provide a least worst option, let those who want to opt out, opt out.

Because this problem will still be here in September, so closing until September isn’t really that practical.

I was intrigued by the 60 knitted Portacabins until I realised I had misread it.
I can remember the days when the next year’s timetable was done by a deputy head with lots of strips of paper representing subjects, teachers and rooms, shuffled around and subsequently pasted on to A3 sheets.
He did this (at least partially) on the back seat of a coach on a summer outing for good students to Alton Towers or whatever. Secondary school, 1400 students in those days.

twitter.com/cyclingkev/status/1258712907476537345?s=21